Regarding My Attitude - MM&M

*Hands SinisteRing a flame shield.* Will comment after hearing the communities views.

edit: im just ridding this topic of this crap..

im terribly pissed but i went off the edge a bit

so im just gonna stay neutral about the subject as thinking about it makes me want to go off..

@ demonic...

...abusing the 'flaming is okay' rule lol xP

i can see where sin is coming from. but i believe that its okay where it is... it wouldbe beter if it started from scratch but that would be a LOT of work.

i'd rather turn in a 2-page mini essay for 9/10 points than rewriting it for 10/10 points. if i was redoing a 3/10 point paper than sure i would redo it. but mm&m isnt in that critical of a state.

all it needs now is new additions

sin, i would like to know what you feel needs redoing... mana fountain... maybe... but what else? spellbooks? we need Zync here too. and maybe pyth.

i dont care if im abusing this whole fucking thing pisses me off..

well idk sin I do know what your getting at, but one thing I'm incline to say is that from an outside point of view you can often times see flaws the creator cannot, which is to say yes the game will be redirected some but in the time frame the map has been w/ rhys/pyth you gotta really ask yourself what has changed that wasn't preplanned? I mean they added m-spells remade 2-3 spells and optimized code really. They didn't have enough time with it to completely change or even nudge the direction imo. So by that logic the map has been through two hands, your and Zync's and from what I can tell most of what you did the community agrees was for the better, meaning the direction you turned it wasn't that bad, and I think as long as the community continues to help guide the map it won't stray far from the path.

oi ima have to say sins "MM&M=Deader then death its self" theory is 100% true at this point
i say we switch to a different map OR OR Put your nuclear minds together and make a better one (TanK likes option 2)

side noteish ive been waiting for the opportunity to flame AND I CANT

im just gonna delete my posts.. i cant believe im the only one who is pissed at sin's uncaring attitude about the situation..

edit: AH CRAP i cant delete em...

that is because your quick to anger, and care more than you should about peoples opinions when they are different from your own.

Sin is saying to start from when Zync handed the map too him - or maybe use 8.00 with all the code optimizations and then take out all M-spells, the fountain etc.

I don't know if you guys remember how he is actually now against things like M-spells, even level caps if I remember...

M-spells were intended by zync and level caps just made the game more aos friendly, though I'm starting to wonder if the fusion is what is holding the map back...

im starting to think the other way about level caps.. i think if people want massivly insane power or stamina let em.. they will be easy to manipulate in the end, massive power = dies easily, massive stam = cant kill anyone for crap.. unless they were spamming mg on earth.. the balanced players will be the ones to prevail in the end..

Doesn't matter what was intended - Sin doesn't like them. He has a different view - and it's funny.

He talks about two great painters both painting half of one painting and it not looking right - but doesn't realize that's what makes things great. Bi-partisan works that 2 different minds work on - it just has to be done in the right way and done together. Conservatives AND Liberals = win. Just one side = only a few things get done.

It's because he has a one-sided view - that he doesn't realize the things that "ruined" the map (done by him) aren't that bad. I mean he did see the value in it at one point in time. He just completely changed views though from Liberal to Conservative (And he's 16 so it's semi-expected). It's all about balance not one side - like he wants it to revert to.

And @ Demonic: I played back in that time and argued against stat caps. I think it's better this way for pure balance reasons. If you have a higher max level it's harder to have balanced teams because it might be IMPOSSIBLE to balance with a high enough level of one person.

well since your knowledgable about it i wont argue.. tho it would be interesting to see how it would effect gameplay at its current level..

cause so far the stat cap allows for hardly any uniqueness, 50% mages have 28 stamina, 34 essence, and 62 power, 40% have 34 pow, 62 stam, and 28 ess, and 10% have something else..

allows for very little originality.. you see what im getting at?

That's what I argued. But it's not all that true. Before, honestly - it would be like 100+ power and the rest in a mix of stamina/essence (if any). Or - something like 150+ power mages and one erupt or Armageddon (Which only did 100% dmg to self, and could be blocked by skin) would end the game.

On the other hand there were 6000 HP + mages, with 33% spell resistance means 9k EHP +. Balance mages were around - but actually weren't that great like they were supposed to be. That's why spells like Static were made - so you would have people not get as much power so they didn't get hit by the 2x power damage. Also why FoD was made to punish the pure power mages.

But aside from all that - if there is one level 99, and a few other scattered people say around 50 - then it becomes impossible to balance. The closer the levels are to eachother the easier to balance just because there isn't a huge range. The problem is either the high level is instant win - or low levels means disables so they win. It's never actually balanced.

And right now - you have mages like mine with 62 stamina, 10 power, rest in essence (which owns). Also 10 Stamina, 62 power, rest in essence mages - which are fun. Less variance means more balance though. Just because there is something to compare to - an average type of stat distribution and such.

Demonic_iTunes wrote:

well since your knowledgable about it i wont argue.. tho it would be interesting to see how it would effect gameplay at its current level..

cause so far the stat cap allows for hardly any uniqueness, 50% mages have 28 stamina, 34 essence, and 62 power, 40% have 34 pow, 62 stam, and 28 ess, and 10% have something else..

allows for very little originality.. you see what im getting at?

yes but, say, people who play anti-mage have certain builds, usually involving X and Y and Z, and possibly W.

power is overused a lot.

i think some spells need to be based off of stamina and essence. the only builds with spike stamina/essence are mountaingiant/armageddon builds and summoner builds.

i sort've agree with demonic... if one throws a dart it will hit somewhere around the bullseye. but if we had 20 different dartboards with everyone throwing in different directions the game would be waaay better


MEH: darn you jay being a ninja-poster >.< okay so i also agree with you... easier to balance with less variety... harder to balance more... but its more fun with more variety despite the extra work

uniqueness ftw.

Personally, I like the direction it has been going in. Especially since Rhys/Pythagoras took over. Of course the game needs a total overhaul, it's a freaking alpha.

My view of MM&M pictures a full expansive RPG game that is better than any other WC3 RPG, and a balanced war system that easily rivals DoTA. It also needs a complete terrain overhaul, and even more of an item overhaul than the patch type fix Rhys was working on. MANY facets of this game need a great deal more work.

Now I don't think starting from scratch is the answer. The loading system, the elements, and the coding are all things that will most likely make it into the final version and are useful. Everything else is a skeleton/filler for what is to come and yes, could probably be remade. I think it would be easier to work off of what is there and then initiate the drastic necessary changes. But, I was happy just to ride along with the slow-but-steady progress we were making because it was at least something.

If we could combine Pythagoras's coding with DBC's map design, DarkDjinni's bosses, and Zync's balancing, that would make me a happy player.

I only played this map, what, once with other people? Then the whole community died on me after that one time. Hmph. Thanks, guys.

Also, if it's an Alpha, shouldn't it be, oh say...not version 8.00?

Also, please argue, and don't flame. Well-thought out arguments with the usual jab or two are way better than flame wars where you're just throwing insults at each other and then maybe bringing up a minor point or two.

It's version 8.0 ALPHA. The alpha part was removed from the game name because it was too long. ("Mages, Magic & Mayhem Alpha Version 8.0" does not fit in a game name thingy.)

And yeah, sorry about that. I wish Pythagoras would just help us get out a stable 8.0 so we can continue playing that. A good stable version with minimal support and/or bug fixes would last us months. (Especially if he continued to code new M-spells and add them periodically.)