Next Release

You could....if you wanted to do the work, make it so that if one of the spells was used before hand the second disable wouldn't last as long. However....if it's entangling roots do realize it's dispellable so it's a buff to water, and it's purgeable so a buff to lightning. That's 2/9 elements that can counter it. It's ..... the same thing as Freeze and Freezing Orb IMO. Since Freeze IS entangling roots with a different animation.

The mage doesn't sound very unique IMO, but I don't think it has to be to be a good mage, to have good synergies and to be "Original". Just because the abilities themselves are just other abilities with different animations (Which most seem to be) it's how they come together to make a unique mage.

But ya, I think you would be fine having both disables....I mean...you can chain Fissure/Hurl Boulder, or Fire Bolt/ Fire Orb or Freeze/Freezing Orb....Or Smite/Pacify or a numerous amount of other disables, most of which aren't counterable.

There are a shitload of abilities that do 5*Power or often much more in large aoe, and they do their damage INSTANTLY. Damage over time should ALWAYS be higher than instant damage.

Why don't you make poison like a buff, and have a higher level buff take effect for each poison stacking. I'm not sure how that works with the *power stuff, but it sounds simple otherwise.

Single target entangle is really boring and we already have it on Ice. Making it AoE would be an actually interesting spell. Please reconsider.

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There are a shitload of abilities that do 5*Power or often much more in large aoe, and they do their damage INSTANTLY. Damage over time should ALWAYS be higher than instant damage.

There's other things to consider. Like...effects. Such as a slow or disable. Other things to consider is synergy. Theory only gets you so far as you have preconceived notions. Theory works better to SUPPORT evidence. Watch the synergy and play the element in tests first IMO.

Quote :

Just because the abilities themselves are just other abilities with different animations (Which most seem to be) it's how they come together to make a unique mage.

True.

Id like to point out however that when you break it down there are not many types of spells available. AOE CASTER, AOE POINT, TARGET POINT, TARGET UNIT

That is it. You can break everything down to those 4 types. I know this because that's what it is in the editor field that says What type of Spell is it. You can make some minor arguments and say that You can have TARGET SELF as a type as well so 5 Types of Spells, any actual variation on them is purely cosmetic and theory. The theory part we can change the cosmetic part we cant. Not without a custom wc3 modeler at our disposal anyway.

But ya...I still think you should have both the single target and the AoE disable. If you think it's imbalanced tell me why the exact same combo Freeze (Targeted) and Freezing Orb (AoE Aimed) is not over powered. Or if it is, why no one bitches about it. I think it's the exact same thing actually. The only reason not to implement it is that it is the same combo. Hell, I'm pretty sure if Freeze wasn't written in JASS (Which I assume it is) It would just be entangling roots with a different animation.

i'm not sure about your policy with stealing spells from other games, but age of myth's dark druid hero has some great spells for you.

Thorns Sac: creates a venom sac with 500 hp at target location. By casting again, hero releases the egg sac, spraying thorns all around. Thorns do 1/2 power every second for 12 seconds. Can only have one sac up at a time, but the sac may be released from any point on the map.

Vinewall: Creates a wall of branches and vines. The wall entangles anyone who attempts to cross it, holding them in place for 2/2.5/3 seconds, and dealing 1.5/2/2.5 power per second. Wall can not be destroyed, but does die out after 5 seconds.

There is also a passive aura that transforms a nearby tree into a treant every 9 seconds or so, but i find summons absurdly boring in an aos.

I just want a new mage, not a mage with a different combination of skills of the other mages...I mean this isn't my game. (at least I try to follow a theme) Please make some guide line for what your shooting for and stop making random skills please, that ulti still seems like a bad idea to me and bark skin is overly useless. Then again if were going by the same theme as the other elements since all the other elements seem to go against the way they actually work...carry on rhys.

I don't even think we should worry about Nature until all of the spell remakes in other elements are done.

But, I think all of Nature's spells besides [Q], [W], [E], [R], and [C] should be based around stacking up "Poison counters" on the enemy which should be based on the [D] passive. Each poison counter continuously stacks up more poison damage per second and resets the duration for all the others. I guess I can give a full 11 spell example if I get bored.



I'll keep updating this as ideas come to me.

[Q] = Spike Lash (Standard Q spell with an animation that looks like a whip and pulls any enemy it hits closer.)
[W] = Rejuvenation (What you proposed sounded good. Melee-map Rejuvenation based on Power.)
[E] = Nature's Sight (Puts a ward on a tree with True Sight and can make you invisible when near it or teleports you to it after a set time or something like that.)
[R] = Absorbtion (Deals 800 damage to a summon or removes a buff from the target and gives you mana. Can be used on Treants as a source of consistent mana regeneration. Mana regeneration is very low if used on an enemy summon.)
[A] = Gaia Wave (Animation is a green Crushing Wave that leaves flowers or entangling roots behind where it moves. Deals moderate damage of about 2.5*Power at max level and adds poison counters.)
[S] = Poisonous Link (Terrible name. It's a channeled spell that targets like Burn. It adds poison counters to your enemy each second it's channeled.)
[D] = Venom (This is the ability that all of your poison counters are based on. Adds poison counters to any enemy that you attack with your mages normal attack.)
[F] = Summon Treant (Makes Treants from trees. Similar to other summoning moves. Treants have hp on the higher end but lower damage. They also share the Venom ability with the mage so that their attacks stack up poison counters.)
[Z] = Poison Strike (Single target nuke. Adds poison counters to the target and slows them.)
[X] = Wilting Bursts (A ring of poison appears around your mage and then continues to strike as it moves outwards. If you've played Anime Fight, it uses the animation of Meier Link's Lust for Darkness ability. Hits similar to Shockwave M-spell. Can hit multiple times, deals minor damage and mini-stuns for .5 seconds. Also adds poison counters to any enemies it hits. 3ish waves.)
[C] = Entangling Wave (Sends out a wave of Entangling Roots animations that appear and steadily spread outward. Large aoe but spreads relatively slowly. Entangles any enemy that steps into any part of it during the duration for Stamina+Essence/15 seconds and deals 2*Power damage per second.)


There you go. It's a mage based on dealing consistent DPS to the enemy. It has a minor utility/regeneration move and a summon along with three disables that are all good in different situations, a movement ability, and an ability that moves the enemy. Stack those poison counters on and watch the enemy wilt away. Keep them close and keep stacking. Even after you die, it's still likely that you'll claim your prey. But, if the enemy has a healer, your going to be quite a bit ineffective. It's also not effective in quick team battles where burst damage mages shine. But, it pushes lanes like no other. This is how I see Nature.

sure, can't hurt if you do, I also want to say I do not approve of nature having any movement spells, unless it is a small boost to movement speed. It is not a mobile element. As for the stacking poison thing, I kinda agree, its just that I think nature should be able to do so much more. I'm actually willing to help rhys make some of the spells since my spell making skills have been improving with the new classes I've been adding to my game.

The ward ability is the closest thing to a movement spell I gave it, and it's just a limited invisibility while you stay within a small area. Not really a movement ability.

gui can be converted to jass, it will just have to be optimized some later on. Either that or I can ask my spell maker (citheros) to do it in jass.

I'm reading all the comments and I can't decide if I find it humorous or heart-wrenching.

Perhaps we ought not to bitch before even seeing the shit?

I say the word "cat."

Now everyone tell me EXACTLY what the cat you imagined looks like.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

I bet no one has the same idea.

Now, let's say the phrase "Nature Element and skills that go with it."

Yeah, good fucking luck since you can't even agree on what a cat should look like.

diaster wrote:

gui can be converted to jass, it will just have to be optimized some later on. Either that or I can ask my spell maker (citheros) to do it in jass.

Optimizing and debugging code, sadly, takes longer than actually writing it from scratch.

I imagine a small furry animal, with 4 legs, whiskers, slit like eyes and a rough tongue.

If you try to get 2 specific yes, you will get completely different results, but as long as you stay general with the theme, in other words something that almost all cats have you can't go wrong.

I'm just asking for a theme, whether I make spells for it I don't really care, I just want to know that rhys isn't just making spells at random and that they are trying to fit some criteria.

Edit: depends on what spell is sent at me, I'm pretty good at coming up with clever ways to do something that most people don't think of. And I can again just send it to a friend to have it optimized before hand if need be. My map is actually popular enough that I have human resources

LOL @ Diaster

Its not even remotely possible for you to help me. Sure I can convert your GUI Triggers to Custom Text and then I can work on Rewriting your Triggers but that would take me longer to do then to create fresh coding of my own.

LOL @ Aqua
This is actually expected, I gave up caring awhile back

4 legs, has a tail, fur, no color is pictured, has eyes, is alive, is moving, says meow. Who else got that?

I did Jay. I guess Rhys doesn't want to listen to us though. I just thought it would be pointless to add another vanilla element with rehashed spells.

It's not vanilla. It's cookies & cream. Sure the actual ice cream is the same, but there's bits of Oreo goodness hiding in it.

Quit being smart and dancing around my question, damnit!

LOL

And get more specific. I need something like:

"Blue-gray fat animal that lounges around all day and weighs anything between 7 to 30 pounds, depending on mood and circumstance. For example, when you are trying to sleep, then the cat weighs on the 30 pound side and will invariably be making it difficult to breathe by sleeping on your chest.

"However, when it is running away from the dog after ninja-ing it, then it weighs on the 7 pound side of things. This cat is also known to be social when it wants something, think it's god, and utterly bitch at you through meows that are almost expressive.

"Oh, right, and it has 4 white socks, little splotches of brown dotting its body in ink-blot tests that would make Freud weep (or insert some other psychoanalytical babble there: i.e. become 'envious' all over again), and has a thick patch of white from its chin to its tail running across its belly so that it looks as if God didn't quite have enough fabric, because it was a Sunday and all the 'JoAnne Fabric' type stores were closed, but decided that this specific animal was too good not to make."

I want to be able to SEE your cat in my mind and not just get a rough outline.

I understand why not many of you are English majors... or writers.

Spoiler:

Our point was that we don't need to describe Nature perfectly. We just want to know it's role in the game. A cat's role in life is to be a fuzzy companion. Nature's role should in my opinion be to do DPS to the enemy with few instant nukes.

Erupt is actually An AOE CASTER spell, you are simply using Code to determine the actual points around the caster that the fissures will strike.

I was about to start writing down all the spells within mmm that I had nothing to do with creating that are basically just rehashes of other spells with separate models instead. It actually turned out to be quicker to do the spells that are not rehashes of other spells.

So Heres the List :



And thats all the spells that are unique in MMM. I know its alot.
Note : I will most likely be defending this statement alot over the next few days so bring it on I suppose.


BTW Every Spell for nature (Except Rejuvenation because sin made it) I made by scratch and it is not a simple rehash of other spells. If you are looking for something spectacular and unique I think wc3 is not the game for you.

I will continue to post what I am working on and what has been done, however I do not think that the average poster for these MM&M Threads realizes just how rude they are and has ultimately led to my not caring. If you think I come to these threads for advice or suggestions your wrong that phase of my map making has been demolished by these forums, I do it for the community to let them know how things are going, and 99% of the time I come to read responses to my leaking information out it is always always always a rude comment on how much something sucks which is almost always interpreted by me as your an ass and I waste every day of my life trying to entertain a few people.

I regress. Im going to work on Spell 9 of 11 Tonight, I will try by best to not have it be anything like anything that anyone has ever thought of or seen or heard of before in history, but when that fails Ill let you know what I created instead and you can all tell me how much of a loser MM&M is and how I should spend my time on something more productive like a Social Life.

/agree... sorry man.

@ dragon: "Nature's role should in my opinion be to do DPS to the enemy with few instant nukes" - Dragonheart91

Okay. Notice the bolded words. You might all be able to agree on a cat's purpose, but you can't agree on Nature's purpose. Stop speaking for other people. Your argument, at first, I thought was valid but then realized failed.

Also, your definition of what a cat's purpose is assumes your point of view. What about the objective or, dare I say it, the cat's point of view? I.e. a cat's purpose, like yours, is to live, die, and reproduce (not necessarily in that order). Let's expand that to MM&M.

The purpose of Nature in the game of MM&M is to bring a new mage for variety into the map and to make the map more fun to play. YOU want a mage that deals DPS with a few instant nukes. Is that good for the map? Maybe.

I just think you need to quit bitching. At this point, I imagine Rhys had a better time in prison than being around all you QQing ID10t's. (Apologies for speaking for you Rhys, just trying to make a point as bluntly/strikingly as possible.)

And, yes, I'll admit that I've bitched before, but seriously? What would you lose by letting Rhys do his thing and then seeing how it turned out. I'm pretty sure he's able to take criticism after the fact, but I know not one who can stand so much bitter bitching before the fact.

I propose that there be no more use of "should" statements. I.e. "You should make Nature be focused on DPS with a few nukes."

Suggestions, however, would probably follow this sort of set-up:

"Hey I thought of some cool ideas. They can be found in 'X' map. But here's a short description of what they do: blah blah description... done. If you think that's cool, then awesome! Hope it helps!"

What most of us have been doing (I'm sure I'm included in this group somehow):
"Your idea sucks. Nature wave isn't unique enough. Fuck you and your map making/giving the community purpose. I think my ideas are better than anything you have or could ever do. Once again, fuck you."

'Grats guys.