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SinisteRing
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SinisteRing


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PostSubject: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 10:51 am

Do you believe what Dexter does (killing bad people vigilante-style) is morally correct?
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Piddagoras
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Piddagoras


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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 3:24 pm

No, it isn't morally correct. I appreciate the justice of it, but he fucks up a couple times and kills innocents.

Plus it's inefficient, without publicizing the fact that there's a murderer killer on the loose, there's no deterring factor, the morality of it is secondary to his dark passenger's need.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 3:48 pm

It is moral. He fucks up once, out of several dozen kills, possibly to the point of hundreds. His actual fuck up has nothing to do with the actual event of killing a killer.

Efficiency doesn't have much weight in the area of ethics IMO. Just because it doesn't have the effect of deterring, doesn't mean it's still not moral or right. Also, just because some other thing might be accomplished (Satiating his dark passenger) doesn't make it less moral either, or at the very least not moral at all. Just because something doesn't have a benefit (Deterring criminals), but it has others (Taking killers off the streets) doesn't mean it's still not worth it.
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SinisteRing
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SinisteRing


Number of posts : 2032
Registration date : 2008-05-21
Age : 31
Location : New Hampshire

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Primary Move: Telekinetic Choke

Dexter Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 6:22 pm

In the show so far, he has fucked up once. During that episode, he showed much remorse and regret about it. Alongside that, he re-doubled his efforts to make things right yet again. Does that excuse the mistake?
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Piddagoras
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Piddagoras


Number of posts : 592
Registration date : 2008-05-22
Age : 36
Location : California

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Primary Move: Cosines and Sines.

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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 7:04 pm

No, the simple fact that he has the capability to fuck up puts the question of morality in the gray. The fact that he's not doing it to accomplish some higher goal of eliminating murder also defeats the morality issue. Ethically, I agree heavily with "eye for an eye", and I support a death penalty for murderers and other heinous crimes, not only because of the justice of it, but because of the deterrence of future pre-meditated action. Morality is a different issue entirely, and is not only concerned with means and ends, but reasoning and causes as well.
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 7:29 pm

It's an awesome show. Who cares if it's morally correct?
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyWed Feb 17, 2010 2:01 am

Pythagoras wrote:
No, the simple fact that he has the capability to fuck up puts the question of morality in the gray.
Why? Taking a utilitarian perspective it doesn't matter. Neither does taking it from a kantian perspective.

Pythagoras wrote:
The fact that he's not doing it to accomplish some higher goal of eliminating murder also defeats the morality issue.
Not from a kantian or utilitarian perspective. Maybe from a Christian perspective where intentions matter.

Pythagoras wrote:
Ethically, I agree heavily with "eye for an eye", and I support a death penalty for murderers and other heinous crimes, not only because of the justice of it, but because of the deterrence of future pre-meditated action.
Again, that's two reasons for an eye for an eye, if you only get one of those (The justice) and not the other (The deterrence) does that somehow make it worse?

Pythagoras wrote:
Morality is a different issue entirely, and is not only concerned with means and ends, but reasoning and causes as well.
And his reasoning says he should only kill murderers, and he obviously holds that dear because he feels remorse if he kills someone outside of the code. An initial purpose of satiating ones hunger to kill, and then further a long the line becoming more of a moral thing IMO. Dexter develops as a character and the intentions of his killing as the story progresses. He becomes a family man and such. Though, that is possible to change with the last season.
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Piddagoras
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Piddagoras


Number of posts : 592
Registration date : 2008-05-22
Age : 36
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Primary Move: Cosines and Sines.

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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyWed Feb 17, 2010 2:24 am

He feels remorse because he broke the code, the code is not about morality, at least not for Dexter, it was for Harry though.

I have no use for the perspectives of others, when I read the question of debate, the definition of moral that seemed most pertinent was:

Moral adj - Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character

And by that definition, Dexter's motivations would come into play heavily. While what he does punishes, the primary purpose is not to punish, it's to feed.

The idea of deterrence was just evidence of his purpose and motivation being contrary to one that would be representative of a "good" human action or character.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyWed Feb 17, 2010 2:36 am

If morally was changed the ethically, would you change stances?
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Piddagoras
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Piddagoras


Number of posts : 592
Registration date : 2008-05-22
Age : 36
Location : California

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Primary Move: Cosines and Sines.

Dexter Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyWed Feb 17, 2010 3:01 am

Pythagoras wrote:
No, the simple fact that he has the capability to fuck up puts the question of morality in the gray. The fact that he's not doing it to accomplish some higher goal of eliminating murder also defeats the morality issue. Ethically, I agree heavily with "eye for an eye", and I support a death penalty for murderers and other heinous crimes, not only because of the justice of it, but because of the deterrence of future pre-meditated action. Morality is a different issue entirely, and is not only concerned with means and ends, but reasoning and causes as well.

I wouldn't say I'd change stances, but from the bold section above, I do agree, although I'd love for the deterrence to be more present. Although it is a slight undertone, it hasn't really been a big player since they the "Bay Harbor Butcher" "died".
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ÐeathByCyanide
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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 23, 2010 3:08 am

Well, then the justice system isn't morally correct? Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been falsely accused, and many people put to death. Nothing is exactly moral, but the consequences must exist. I do believe in and eye for an eye, anyone who murders another for a reason other than self defense doesn't deserve to live in my opinion. You'd have to have poor self control, or be mentally ill to commit murder. People like this aren't safe, I'd support Dexter if he were a real character.


Last edited by ÐeathByCyanide on Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Piddagoras
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Piddagoras


Number of posts : 592
Registration date : 2008-05-22
Age : 36
Location : California

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Primary Move: Cosines and Sines.

Dexter Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 23, 2010 4:51 am

ÐeathByCyanide wrote:
Well, then the justice system isn't morally correct? Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been falsely accused, and many people put to death. Nothing is exactly moral, but the consequences must exist. I do believe in and eye for an eye, anyone who murders another for a reason other than self defense doesn't deserve to live in my opinion. You'd have to have poor self control, or be mentally ill to commit murder. People like this aren't safe, I'd support Dexter if he were a real character.

You'd need to cite some statistics on the number of innocents falsely convicted and falsely put to death before I'd be able to take that point seriously. And I assume you're talking about the U.S. Justice System. There's this conception that people have, probably largely due to paranoia, self preservation, and the media's portrayal of the justice system (media being daytime cop dramas in this case, primarily), that there are a huge number of false convictions. People, in general, fear being falsely accused and punished for something to a severe extent. Its probably a leftover phobia from childhood, in which blame is usually passed between children by false accusations on a regular basis.

Also, you seem to be making an equivocation between murder and what Dexter does, because you say that those who murder deserve to die, but you'd support Dex.
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ÐeathByCyanide
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ÐeathByCyanide


Number of posts : 524
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Dexter Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 23, 2010 5:47 am

Pythagoras wrote:
ÐeathByCyanide wrote:
Well, then the justice system isn't morally correct? Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been falsely accused, and many people put to death. Nothing is exactly moral, but the consequences must exist. I do believe in and eye for an eye, anyone who murders another for a reason other than self defense doesn't deserve to live in my opinion. You'd have to have poor self control, or be mentally ill to commit murder. People like this aren't safe, I'd support Dexter if he were a real character.

You'd need to cite some statistics on the number of innocents falsely convicted and falsely put to death before I'd be able to take that point seriously. And I assume you're talking about the U.S. Justice System. There's this conception that people have, probably largely due to paranoia, self preservation, and the media's portrayal of the justice system (media being daytime cop dramas in this case, primarily), that there are a huge number of false convictions. People, in general, fear being falsely accused and punished for something to a severe extent. Its probably a leftover phobia from childhood, in which blame is usually passed between children by false accusations on a regular basis.

Also, you seem to be making an equivocation between murder and what Dexter does, because you say that those who murder deserve to die, but you'd support Dex.


No, I just mean throughout time. Anywhere actually, and Dexter was killing people as sick as he was, and people who weren't not innocent. Why not let him do what he wants? More lives are saved in the long run. Also way to call him Dex, just like Lola. The justice system can't find these murderers like Dexter can either, and they probably wouldn't have too. Hes the perfect tool. I typed this at three in the morning with a few hours of sleep for the past few days, which explains the grammar. When did Dexter kill someone innocent? I can't remember because I finished two seasons. I really see no difference then the justice system executing someone, and a "Dexter" executing someone", they're both just as morally incorrect.
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Piddagoras
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Piddagoras


Number of posts : 592
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Age : 36
Location : California

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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyTue Feb 23, 2010 3:52 pm

He killed the porn dude. And then one day later found out that he was wrong, because the real killer was found due to actual police-work and brought into the station the next day. He could share his insights about the murderers with the PD and they could be captured and tried, with less error. Any "Dexter-like" character in real life would likely have a margin of error closer to 25%, if not more. People are not as well behaved as he is, and generally the evidence is not as clear as they make it. The justice system is set up so that it is very difficult for there to be false positives by allowing for more false negatives, just like hypothesis testing in statistical analysis. When they say "Not guilty" they mean there is not sufficient evidence to conclude "Guilt".

There have been a few people in the past years that have identified with Dexter and attempted to murder someone. They, however, were not trying to kill murderers, just people who pissed them off. The show can't be blamed for these people being dumb as fuck, but Dexter's character is anomalous and any real person would fail a lot more often, in more ways than one.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Dexter   Dexter EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 12:44 am

Why innocent until proven guilty? Everyone should be guilty until proven innocent! (With lesser expectations for proving innocence).
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