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 Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle

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After reading, do you still want no reset cooldowns?
Yes - Add the new system!
Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle I_vote_lcap11%Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle I_vote_rcap
 11% [ 1 ]
No - It'd give up too much!
Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle I_vote_lcap89%Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle I_vote_rcap
 89% [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 9
 

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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptySun Jun 08, 2008 7:05 pm

READ BEFORE VOTING

Alright, so last time it was voted that spellbook toggle shouldn't reset cooldowns. However, after creating the system that somewhat works (it doesn't, because I haven't fully finished it and it already sacrifices a whole lot), I've decided to vote again based on what you guys would think about the consequences of me adding the system. Instead of putting them in a paragraph, I'll list what has to be done in gold, then their reasoning in blue below. Here goes:

-No selection circle when you open a spellbook.
The new system would imply that you would have both spellbooks available, with one disabled. However, even when this occurs, the spell listing still goes to the first book. This means I'd have to use dummy units (units you cannot see) away from the field to prevent collision interferences and mage movement vs. dummy unit movement.

-Extended delay.
With new dummy units, the player would be moving the dummy unit... which would trigger the event to issue that same order to the mage and a "stop" to the dummy unit. This would add a lagg of about .03-.05 seconds... and could add up when multiple people are using the trigger.

-Longer loading screen.
-Less space for the future implementations.

This would introduce about 30 new units into the fold, increasing the size of the game and the amount you have to load at the start. This means that the loading screen would take longer and there would be less space for future implementations.


Last edited by SinisteRing on Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jay.J
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Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptySun Jun 08, 2008 7:12 pm

Not worth it, never was. Even if you had a system that had no flaws. Toggling for resetting cooldowns is too valuable a stratagy that is balanced to get rid of.

I said it before, you've done a lot of work, for minimal gain.

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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptySun Jun 08, 2008 8:05 pm

seems excessive...couldn't you just add your second spell book to the character? and make it so if they try to use a spell in that book, it stops them if its not their main? I mean I could write that in triggers...give each of the spells a custom value 1 for main book, 2 for second, when you toggle the values switch, if a unit tried to cast a spell and the custom value is 2, stop the action? That is how I would try it...
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptySun Jun 08, 2008 9:43 pm

I have never thought Toggling was a big deal. I feel bad for all the work you have done, but it really doesn't sound worth it.
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 11:37 am

Diaster, the problem comes when there is only 11 buttons you can use. If you have a Dark book and an Earth book, when opening the Earth book all the Dark spells will be shown. Even if the Dark spells were stopped, you wouldn't be able to cast earth spells!

Thus, this seems the only solution. There's far too excessive compromise and too much work would need to be done to make this into working order.

I will not be implementing the system. That's final.
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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 4:14 pm

I'm not getting what you mean, why would the dark spells go off when you try to use a earth spell unless they were in the same book, then the hot keys would have issues...
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 4:21 pm

Here's your job, Diaster, since you know how to do it (I think):

1. Make a blank map.
2. Make 2 spellbooks.
3. Fill both spellbooks.
4. Apply both abilities to a unit.
5. Try opening each book individually.

I'd do it myself, but I'm too busy/lazy to do so.
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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 4:22 pm

actually the reason I'm probably so in the dark on this is because I don't know how to make a spell book, but I'm guessing it has something to do with both books having the same hotkey...but couldn't you just change the books hotkey to make them unique?
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 4:25 pm

No. It has to do with spell listings. When a spellbook has listed spells (put into GUI, cannot be changed without MAJOR effort), the spells are carried on the hero... not the ability. Thus, the same spell listing are used...

You truly need to make it to understand. I might make a mini-map on it soon, but not right now...
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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 4:37 pm

alright I think I understand, and ya doing it w/ gui (which is all I know) is crazy hard/impossible. My only other idea would be have 24 integer arrays, (one for each book possible) each with 11 variables set to 0. Then when a spell is cast, it sets the corresponding variable to its recharge time, each second the variable would be decremented by 1, and if they try to cast again and the variable isn't 0 they can't, and it could use the variable to tell them how long to wait. though the issue with this is it could add lag to the game, and it would take a while to implement, though since you use vjass you might be able to do something about those.
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 4:39 pm

Sigh... look up Wc3Campaigns on how to make a book. You've got it all wrong! It's in the game itself!
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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 4:55 pm

I see...surprised I never noticed it...Aspb, though even after read the description of how it works, I still don't understand why the second idea won't work. It has nothing to do with the first in case you are misreading. (doesn't need both books on the mage)
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 5:46 pm

The problem with the second idea is the massive amount of coding, planning, and pure space it'd require of the map. Also, it'd take a whole LONG time to make such a thing, and as Jay.J mentioned before it's "for little." That meaning the system wont affect much of the overall gameplay anyways.
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Rhys
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 6:27 pm

I know you probably already figured out how your going to fix it, but hey why not continue discussing possible ways?

You could take each broken skill abused by the toggle spell book function and average out all the cool downs to get a single number, then make the toggle cool down that number. Might work.

You could make toggling your spell book create a automatic global cool down on all your skills.

Im sure someones suggested increasing mana costs.

You could simply take out the backup spell book ability, while people may gripe about that I think that in the end this may actually be better overall considering it would free up load time on the startup screen and it would reduce lag considering a few triggers are out of the game that just so happen to be used constantly throughout the game and it would also directly negate many broken combinations that have popped up after the multi books where introduced.

I do think that this issue is related to M-Books being introduced, fixing the problem may be more complicated then simple cool downs and mana costs, while I probably wont be able to figure out the correct answer maybe some one has a better idea or maybe sin could let me know exactly what the plan is Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 7:03 pm

I don't see the point of doing this with even a FLAWLESS system. It's perfectly fine to be able to toggle and reset cooldowns. Either you have complete DPS advantage, in that you can shoot 3orbs in the pallies face, or you can support your team by constatly giving them mana, or you can do a little bit of both. If every person has the ability to book toggle, and each combo is "imbalanced" and there is no single one better combo then any other, then it's fine and balanced. Having a slightly better toggle book, just means you have a good plan and overall mage. That will always exist in any game that is diverse....It's easy to balance rock paper sissors, but when you start adding variety it is very hard to balance - but everything always has a counter currently, so leave it.... Sad

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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 9:57 pm

well the only skill right now I really have a compliant about being able to toggle refresh, is res. Fix it so you can't toggle refresh it and I'll have no issues with this not being added.
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 9:59 pm

That's nowhere near overpowered as of the moment, AFAIK. Having water as a second is basically a debuff to your entire mage. Shooting out 3 orbs with no mana at the end or shooting out 1 with full? It's your choice. It just depends on your play style.

Give me conclusive evidence in the form of a replay that Element/Water combos are overpowered. If you want a set stage, I'll generate a code with element/water and you can play ME and see how you fare. Probably pretty decently.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 10:15 pm

Exactly...So if things can compare up to water/element, and things can compare to ice/element or fire/element etc...
Then it's balanced, why try to change it, if things already compare with eachother....

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diaster
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Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 10:17 pm

Am I the only one who thinks toggling res is rigged?
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 10:21 pm

Yes? Considering it can still be interrupted - it's being super nerfed next version - and the fact doing it effectively means being ONE set element combination which is purely support which requires you to be able to support well anyway. And even that will be replaced with a multi-element spell anyway. So whatever, right?

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Dragonheart91
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Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle   Forum Poll (6/8): Spellbook Toggle EmptyMon Jun 09, 2008 10:31 pm

Ressurect only has 35 second cooldown anyway. (AFAIK) And it has a channeling time of anywhere form 8-20 seconds usually. Reducing the cooldown to 8 seconds really doesn't seem that bad to me when compared to things like triple orb or fully restore the Paladin mana in 20 seconds.
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