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 Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill

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Which ones would you like to see first?
Precision Strike/Flaming Essence replaced
Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_lcap19%Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_rcap
 19% [ 4 ]
Thunderstorm choosing closest unit
Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_lcap19%Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_rcap
 19% [ 4 ]
Mountain Giant passive fissure every X attacks
Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_lcap24%Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_rcap
 24% [ 5 ]
Carrion Swarm spawning every X units it hits
Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_lcap24%Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_rcap
 24% [ 5 ]
Blind replaced (TBD)
Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_lcap14%Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill I_vote_rcap
 14% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 21
 

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SinisteRing
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Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill Empty
PostSubject: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySat May 24, 2008 1:25 am

Most of this game runs off of skill... but some of it is pure luck. I plan on the additions in the poll, but I'm not sure which ones you want first/which to prioritize as highest/lowest. Please pick the few that you think are good and allow me to prioritize which ones to do first and last.

Note: (TBD) means that it may or may not be added.


Last edited by SinisteRing on Sun May 25, 2008 2:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySat May 24, 2008 1:28 am

I would like to see thunderstorm have a greater chance to attack the unit you are physically attacking. Or, if you haven't attacked anyone - the closest target.
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ŠeathByCyanide
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySat May 24, 2008 2:13 am

Well. Im 99.9% sure Fireorb ALREADY has a pre-determined pattern. One firebolt always shoots the direction you aim.
And almost never does the same person get hit by a second one, standing in the same spot.

Also, I dont see why, Thunderstrike is a simple point+click. And does Power*5.

While firebolt is hard to aim, has the smallest AoE ever, and does the same amount of damage... ?

Also, I voted for Precision Strike/Flaming Essence replaced (TBD)

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Last edited by DeathByCyanide on Sat May 24, 2008 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySat May 24, 2008 2:22 am

Pshh learn your spells DBC. Thunderstorm = buff you put on that randomly casts lightning...

Also read my analysis of fire/lightning... Comment there about it.

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ŠeathByCyanide
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySat May 24, 2008 2:24 am

Jay.J wrote:
Pshh learn your spells DBC. Thunderstorm = buff you put on that randomly casts lightning...

Also read my analysis of fire/lightning... Comment there about it.

I know that. >;o!
I was just saying it because it was on topic. xD
Hrrm, Yeah Ill check it out Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySat May 24, 2008 2:57 am

I voted for carrion and mountain giant. when you say that for carrion do you mean completely removing the crushing wave effects and just spawn units? I think that's what it should do...but that would make power almost completely pointless for dark.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySat May 24, 2008 10:00 am

....

How would taking away the wave aspect of the move remove luck based parts, and add skill based parts....

You realize darks moves have a cap with power right...how would that make power pointless for dark....

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySat May 24, 2008 1:47 pm

The only spells that use power for dark are dark tithe, which is basically just used for the stun, life drain, which is ok if you're running low on mana, or can't toggle your spellbook, carrion swarm, and Death coil. Death coil really isn't all that good after the nerf, unless you upgrade it, and all of the other spells don't rely on your power at all. I'd take stamina anyday if carrion swarm wasn't only dependent on power.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySat May 24, 2008 2:12 pm

Shows how much you know about the game....Dark Tithe, Carrion swarm, Death Coil, Leech Life amd Soul reaper is capped at 8x power. 5/11 skills use your power. The other skills are either summons, passive, or set amounts. FoD is the only nuke that doesn't use power. 5 skills is plenty of reason to get power. You mentioned 4, and even that is reason to get it. Although dark tithe is used mainly for the stun...It still does decent damage.

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BashAndSmash
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 12:28 am

I do not wish ANY of the suggestions you suggested to be added escept Blind. The chance to crit on Flaming ess, PS is fun to use. Thunderstorm choosing closest unit would overpower it (send TS'ed footmen to attack the pally). This would nerf a MG's chance to Perma-stun a hero if it was say one every 5 attacks. A determined fire orb would be a MAJOR NERF to fire orb. Against any skilled oppponent most of the danger comes from not being able to say where the bolt will strike. Carrion swarm spawning every x units it hits would remove its chance to spawn 3 bugs on a unit and thus remove part of it's power component. Blind just does not seem like a very good skill. Maybe you could replace it with a confusion spell that can cause a low chance of your spells not working( feel free to reject this, it sounds buggy already).
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 1:45 am

BashAndSmash wrote:
I do not wish ANY of the suggestions you suggested to be added escept Blind.

I'm glad you agree with one of them.

BashAndSmash wrote:
The chance to crit on Flaming ess, PS is fun to use.

I don't see anything about "skill" in that sentence, because Flaming Essence and PS is based on luck... and last time I checked dealing an extra 300-500 damage based on luck was a big difference.

BashAndSmash wrote:
Thunderstorm choosing closest unit would overpower it (send TS'ed footmen to attack the pally).

No, it wouldn't overpower it. It'd require the player to get better positioning to have any chance of hitting the unit they want. Standing in the center of a circle of creeps would literally make you invulnerable to Thunderstorm... think about it.

BashAndSmash wrote:
This would nerf a MG's chance to Perma-stun a hero if it was say one every 5 attacks.

I remember vaguely something about Zync saying that DotA was perfect except for the fact of perma-stun on click. That's basically a Mountain Giant possibility. Very Happy

BashAndSmash wrote:
A determined fire orb would be a MAJOR NERF to fire orb. Against any skilled oppponent most of the danger comes from not being able to say where the bolt will strike.

Agreed, I probably wont add it. It's on the TBD list.

BashAndSmash wrote:
Carrion swarm spawning every x units it hits would remove its chance to spawn 3 bugs on a unit and thus remove part of it's power component.

So you're saying it's overpowered right now? Either way... having a chance to spawn 500 bugs on a mob and having a chance to spawn 0 bugs on a mob just isn't fair. Allowing them to determine a rough estimate of the bugs they'll make and the DPS it'll do would 1. Apply more skill to the user and 2. Allow people to basically "land" a bug on a unit they want to target. Let's say it was 1 bug every 3 units. Just make sure the number of units infront of the target you want is 2, 5, 8, 11, etc.

You changed my mind on one thing. Good job.
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Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill Empty
PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 2:01 am

Ya know I've been thinking about the thunderstorm mod and I really disagree with most of the suggestion I have seen to change it outside of Jays suggestion to make it more likely to target your attack target. One of the biggest themes behind TS is the luck which I think Zync even said/supported. The reason I can think of to leave TS be are, it can point out invisible attackers even in a crowd of creeps, if it because able to use actively, it would do way too much damage to be fair on top of lightnings holds, spamming TS would then become extremely powerful for other classes making lightning not only a good mage killer but one of the best damage support mages. I think if your going to change lightning you should probably jump into the discussion in the single element balance forums then come to a decision.
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BashAndSmash
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 2:03 am

I disagree with what you posted about it doing up 500 extra damage on a strike. If you can provide any example where it could do so much extra i could agree with that the skill adds an obscene amount of damage.
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 2:19 am

I think the MG is the only thing that needs to be changed. This would definitely be the most important IMO. I also think it should work on units, and be something like every 10-12 hits with the item reducing it by two hits. That way you gotta save up your fissure hit for when you have a creep wave or a hero to pwn. I also think the bash can stay how it is.

The bugs from Carrion Swarm are #1 Not that powerful even en-mass; and #2 Usually averaged due to the fact that it is alot of small %s instead of one big one. The natural way that the ability works makes it average like one bug per unit almost all the time.

Thunderstorm targeting closest (or having 50% chance to target closest) COULD be ok, but then it might need to be tweaked. I am also thinking this would finish balancing lightning and hopefully make Jay stop whining.

Fire Orb is not THAT random, and it can be dodged either way. I personally think it is perfect as-is.

Blind has little to do with luck, and I think it is fine as-is. Pacifism is a much higher priority of something to replace.

PS and FE I think are fine, because they don't hit THAT often, and I really think they add good flavor to the game. There is some room for a little luck in this game, just not TOO much. I think that the critical strike on spells is an awesome thing. (There is strategy to it anyway. When you face them you have to expect the larger hits and plan accordingly.)
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 2:28 am

Pacifism would be awesome if you didn't need sight of a unit to use it.
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 2:38 am

For BashAndSmash

Use Thunderclap and hope for a precision strike.

When a level 62 glass cannon Lightning Mage uses it without any bonus to power...
Normal damage: 62*7.5... which is 465. Precision Strike would go for 697.5 damage. That's a 232.5 damage difference.

When a level 62 glass cannon Lightning Mage uses it with bonus to power...
Altered damage: 85*7.5... which is 637.5. Precision Strike would go for 956.25 damage. That's a 318.75 damage difference.

Don't think it's enough? Let's try a Fire Orb. Let's just say that 1 bolt hits the person and then becomes the epicenter of the blast of the Fire Orb. Not an uncommon hit.

With 62 power...
Normal damage: 62*7.5 (Fire Orb explosion within 245 area) + 62*2.5. Basically 62*10... which adds up to 620. Flaming Essence would make that into 930. 310 extra damage.

I'm sure a Fire Mage wouldn't get stuck at 62 power... let's add him up to something like 80.
Altered damage: 80*10... 810 damage dude... Easily calculated, a Flaming Essence would do a WHOPPING 1215 damage! That's basically the largest amount of damage done by any spell... and Flaming Essence is the source of an extremely high 405 damage.

Still don't think it does enough with even Fire Orb? Add in the 2.5 second stun and see what other spell a Fire Mage is allowed to throw at you with Flaming Essence as well. Easily over 1800 damage from 2 spells because of Flaming Essence.

For Dragonheart91

Dragonheart91 wrote:
I also think it should work on units

It does work on units... already... As for your idea of 10-12 hits, I was thinking more of 7 or 8. Not sure what the balance would be, but something useful. MG's attack pretty slowly if I can recall... and a slow makes them hit one time every like... 3 seconds. That's 21 or 24 seconds they have to wait for each proc. Without a slow it'd still be a good 10-15.

Dragonheart91 wrote:
The natural way that the ability works makes it average like one bug per unit almost all the time.

Good point... Back it up a bit more and I'll change my mind. It still doesn't seem like enough, though.

Dragonheart91 wrote:
Thunderstorm targeting closest (or having 50% chance to target closest) COULD be ok, but then it might need to be tweaked.

Of course balancing will need to be done with almost all of these tweaks to skills. That'd come after the change, though.

Dragonheart91 wrote:
make Jay stop whining.

I rofl'd.

Dragonheart91 wrote:
Blind has little to do with luck, and I think it is fine as-is.

Are you kidding? 75% chance is 3/4 chance. Anything above 10% and below 90% on a percent chance skill is based on luck. Someone with 75% blind could be looking at trying to hit 2 times in a row to kill someone. If they get both of those hits, it's complete luck.

I'm starting to wonder if I should make the miss chance when shooting uphill a bit higher. I say that's luck Very Happy

Dragonheart91 wrote:
Pacifism is a much higher priority of something to replace.

Explain this to me. I don't see why Pacifism > Blind in luck.

Dragonheart91 wrote:
There is strategy to it anyway. When you face them you have to expect the larger hits and plan accordingly.

No, there's really not any strategy. In 4.06 (way, way back when... where revive was bugged), I had a level 99 lightning mage. I was playing with Siddha one time with his Ice Mage, who had something like 900-1000 health. My lightning mage had 123 power. I dealt out 650 or 700 lightning strikes all the time. Precision Strike lightning strikes was an instant kill. Needless to say, it was a HUGE difference in our gameplay, as I was always able to either 1-shot him or get him to 1/3... in which case he'd just go back instead of stay out of play for 2 minutes.

Do not try to change my mind with Precision Strike and/or Flaming Essence. I am stone-cold on it and will not change.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 2:55 am

Jay.J wrote:
Shows how much you know about the game....Dark Tithe, Carrion swarm, Death Coil, Leech Life amd Soul reaper is capped at 8x power. 5/11 skills use your power. The other skills are either summons, passive, or set amounts. FoD is the only nuke that doesn't use power. 5 skills is plenty of reason to get power. You mentioned 4, and even that is reason to get it. Although dark tithe is used mainly for the stun...It still does decent damage.

Lulz...you can't depend on death coil as a nuke, I already said leech life isn' that good, idk a single person who uses soul reaper, death coil isn't reliable at all, and you already said dark tithe whas already used mainly for stun...that means most power is used for carrion swarm, and self-healing with death coil, but after the nerf that's pretty useless too.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 3:05 am

monkey5476 wrote:
Jay.J wrote:
Shows how much you know about the game....Dark Tithe, Carrion swarm, Death Coil, Leech Life amd Soul reaper is capped at 8x power. 5/11 skills use your power. The other skills are either summons, passive, or set amounts. FoD is the only nuke that doesn't use power. 5 skills is plenty of reason to get power. You mentioned 4, and even that is reason to get it. Although dark tithe is used mainly for the stun...It still does decent damage.

Lulz...you can't depend on death coil as a nuke, I already said leech life isn' that good, idk a single person who uses soul reaper, death coil isn't reliable at all, and you already said dark tithe whas already used mainly for stun...that means most power is used for carrion swarm, and self-healing with death coil, but after the nerf that's pretty useless too.

monkey, you obviously have zero experience playing against a dark. soul reaper is one of the best moves because it scales depending on the enemy's mana, and when it's low, you use it for an easy 600 damage. death coil is now a half heal down from a full heal (thank GOD. dark was unbeatable with a full heal), and it isn't used as a nuke very much anyway, since it takes too long to cast. even if you only get power to create strong carrion swarms, that's reason enough. have you seen high power carrion swarms? i didn't think so.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 3:08 am

Hey asshole, maybe if you followed the entire conversation instead of butting in you would understand. I was saying other than carrion swarm, most dark spells arent very dependent on power. you basically just proved my point. not only do I have experience playing against dark, my main is a dark. Try not to be such an ignorant douche next time.
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BashAndSmash
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 3:55 am

You are obviously a moron if you never use soul reaper. an 8x power instant cast is really good.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 4:00 am

LMFAO. 8x power is the cap, not the amount of damage it does. This whole argument smells of epic fail. Soul reaper does damage, depending on how much mana your opponent is missing...to a cap of 8x...I'm not sure of the actual facotors, but whatever.
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Lagger09
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 4:10 am

what i have seen lately with carrion swarm, is poeple will cast it on a group near an enemy mage, the select all the locusts, and have them attk the mage, dealing alot of damage, added to the spell's damage. ATM dark feels a little OP when you play vs it, it can counter most everything, since it has every kind of spell, and does alot of damage, based on any attribute you major in.
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DarkDjinni
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 4:35 am

Wow, who said first that Soul Reaper is not affected by power?

Quote :
Soul Reaper (3 levels) [X]

Effect: Reaps target unit with an unholy force, which deals damage based on the amount of mana that target is currently missing.
Cannot deal more damage than 8.0 * Power.

Mana Cost: 195/230/265
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 850
Cooldown: 41 seconds
Damage: 0.33/0.66/0.99 * Missing Mana + Power

Yep, some people should know their spells.
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 4:43 am

I think that a passable amount of luck is acceptable, especially when it doesn't deal with stun. Flaming Essence can be removed due to the stunlock factor, but I think Precision Strike is fine. I don't feel gimped when I die due to precision strike proc, and I don't think they feel gimped when I escape due to no proc.

The reason blind doesn't matter much, is because you basically never count on normal attacks. This is a game of spells and making someone 75% miss just means they don't bother to attack at all usually. The only time it really matters is with NPC heroes, and still it seems like it doesn't feel lucksackish ever IMO.

Pacifism doesn't have to do with luck, but it isn't much use at all. High mana cost combined with nearly worthless effect = spell I wouldn't use.

As far as the averaging on Carrion Swarm, that is due to the fact that when you cast it each unit has three 70%ish chances put on it, and you use it on like 12ish units usually. That is 36 runs of 70%. That usually equates to a good average. Anything over 10 instances of the % chances generally starts to average out. (I do not deny that it could produce 90 bugs in that situation, but the odds are much higher against that than if each footman was 70% chance to spawn three instead of three 70% of spawning one.) More instances to average = overall average that is closer to the mean. (If anyone is a math buff, feel free to explain this in complex fancy terms, I am just lazy.)



P.S. Just because it is full of win: Garmet...
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill   Forum Poll (5/24): Adding Skill EmptySun May 25, 2008 5:49 am

Okay sinister on your idea with fire orb thats assuming BOTH FE.
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