Outer-Space Life Forms

I need opinions on what people think is out there in space. Is it other, intelligent life forms? Would it be bacteria? Or are we only searching for our own doom?

I'd be more than willing to say there is "Living" beings out there in space. That being said, the chances of them being intelligent, I think - are slim. Maybe as intelligent as a dolphin, tops. But as smart, or smarter than us - I think that's asking for a lot.

Then again, the human race as a whole is pretty stupid , just complex.

well there's about 500billion galaxies, and counting (site), and one in 500billion, and with each having many solar systems and many planets, we would have to be REALLY unique to be the only sentient beings.

kuro wrote:

well there's about 500billion galaxies, and counting (site), and one in 500billion, and with each having many solar systems and many planets, we would have to be REALLY unique to be the only sentient beings.

Not to mention the universe is expanding, and planets and stars are also exploding and forming along the way.
I think people are a little ignorant if they think we're the ONLY life forms.

If there were, We'd have no means on communication either. Being that they evolved differently to live on their planet.
We most likely couldn't go to their planet, nor they could come to ours.

its possible.

it took... nearly 5billion years... to get to where we are now.

someone else could have gotten there faster, and further

I think that we're pretty young compared to the universe, and that other sentient beings exist. However, compared to them, we are nothing. They would likely consider us cows compared to them, and come down and eat us all. They could likely simply send gamma waves our way to wipe out our electricity, and we become defenseless.

Overall, I believe that we are underpowered in the universe, and we're trying to become stronger... but with the way our world sucks so bad, there's no chance we're going to become as great as the other sentient beings out there.

Why do you think theres more intelligent life than us?

Most of us agree there is intelligent life right now. Why should we believe it to be more intelligent in any way?

Because, Chances are its had longer to evolve into something more inteligent.

maybe it wont even be animal based, what about sentient plants or protists?

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Because, Chances are its had longer to evolve into something more inteligent.

maybe it wont even be animal based, what about sentient plants or protists?

1. Evolution doesn't say things "Evolve towards something, or to a greater/better thing".
2. Why do you assume it's had a longer time? Why could we not be the first planet to have intelligent life form?
3. What are you basing these chances on.?

On a side note - I don't really think we would call them plants if they had actual conscienceness.

we all had the same amount of time to evolve.


chances are, a bunch of other sentient life-forms exist.

chances are, that there are life forms smarter than us
but there are probably life forms dumber than us, like some life forms are smarter and/or dumber than us right over here on our own planet.


its like, if you think you're good at videogames, its most likely someone else will be better than you, but also likely someone would be worse than you.

1.) There is too much space for there to NOT be other life out there.
2.) As far as humans know, we are the only intelligent life on our planet by our definition.
3.) Our intelligence evolved from a sexually selective trait that favored communication. Namely: Language. Think about how difficult grammar is and now think about these two examples: John likes fish. John likes apples. Now think about a young child who is just learning to speak. This child might hear the above examples and then hear this: John likes to fish. Logically, what might the child *also* say? John likes to apples. But they *don't* ever say that. Why? Children instinctively acquire language and they need an intense amount of brain power in order to do that.
4.) Communication, for humans, is a necessary precursor for "higher intelligence."
5.) Predators are normally more intelligent than prey because they need to predict the movements of the prey. Those calculations require more brain power. Intelligence = food for predators. And communication makes food easier to get in a society of hunters/gatherers (humans).
6.) Plants don't hunt, they don't need to (save venus fly trap). Still, this is *not* hunting. It's waiting.
7.) It is very unlikely that a plant would ever need to acquire intelligence because intelligence comes at a very high cost. For humans, this cost is about 30% more calories that are derived from carbohydrates.

Source: College class named Physics of Science Fiction taught by Professor Sam Milazzo.

I know my points are arguable. And I have a feeling Jay will do that devil's advocate thing that he does so well. Go fer it.

My opinion:

Even if intelligence was a complete fucked up accident, If the universe is technically infinite, then there will be an infinite amount of intelligent species. However, it is not quite infinite (at least as far as we know), but its still very likely that the intelligence fuck up has happened more than once. So there is almost definitally sentient life out there somewhere.

Now, will we ever see it. Probably not. Because it would be a fairly long way away. And I use fairly very loosely. And I dont think that we (or them) are going to be able to meet with the next 4 years before we die anyway. So it really does not matter in the slightest to the human race whether theres life or not. At least it doesnt seem like it does. And it shouldn't .

HOWEVER, if there is, and we do meet it, then there is a VERY good chance that it is MUCH more technically advanced then we are. Thats the only way it would meet us actually, but any life, whether we meet it or not, should in theory be more advanced then us. Because if you were to put the entire existance of earth into one hour, guess how long we would be there for. A tenth of a second. We honestly havent even existed for a full second in the Earths history. Humans have been here for no time at all. And considering how far weve come, thats not too bad, but any extraterretrial intelligence would be more advanced then us probably. Id put money on it.

Unless it was from a galaxy that formed recently. Recently in relative terms.

Unfortunately I don't have as much time as I used to, so I won't be going all out.

I just see no reason for there to be more INTELLIGENT life forms than us. I agree completely on life forms, just why should they be more intelligent?

I don't think anyone has really got at that...

@Kuro: You say "we all had the same amount of time to evolve" and "chances are, that there are life forms smarter than us"

For your first statement, I'm not sure what you mean? If you mean universally - then no we haven't. Some planets, galaxies etc. formed before others. Now, I don't know how old is our galaxy/planet in comparison to the rest of the universe. Even if there are OLDER galaxies, that have had more time to evolve, again just because you have more time to evolve doesn't mean you evolve into a smarter being. Also, just because they're older, doesn't mean they even had the capabilities to produce life. As to your second statement....

The way I see it for there to be a more intelligent life form these things PROBABLY should happen, for it to be "likely"
1. The galaxy must be older (Finite amount)
2. The galaxy/planet must be able to have life forms
3. Just because they have had longer, doesn't mean they've evolved further. For one, again evolution doesn't mean evolving to the best possible being or anything like that - it means adapting to fit your environment and surroundings. Why should they be smarter.

Personally I don't think it's likely at all. The fact that we're around today is because of a lot of specific conditions that happened.

@AquaAscension: I'm not going to argue your points, we've already done evolution. For this argument let's assume evolution is true. So 2 and beyond, let's assume are all true. Now, I don't argue claim one either - but I do ask why should it be intelligent. Same reasons I think it's improbable that there is INTELLIGENT life for kuro goes to you.

@RapidFireOmega: Why is the universe technically infinite? Not sure where you're coming up with that. I'm going to say it's finite and expanding.

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And I dont think that we (or them) are going to be able to meet with the next 4 years before we die anyway.

I lol'd at that sentence.

Anywho -why on earth should we think that there's anything more intelligent than us? We lack evidence of there even being life forms out there. We use statistics to say there probably is. Now using statistics again, I would say there is a near-zero chance of more intelligent life forms.

Discuss.

we also lack statistics on the big bang.

1- why SHOULD there be intelligent life out there?
2- why SHOULDN't there be intelligent life out there?
3- why should they be smarter?

see, there's no evidence to prove it, but no evidence to disprove it. jay.j, you're saying there's no reason that there should be other intelligent life. well, that's true! there's also no reason why we're here either. or why our planet exists. it just DOES. by god's hand or not, stuff just IS. you can say 'why should it be there?' all you want but you'll never find an answer. you're asking us a questions that's almost rhetorical.



bringing the conversation a little closer back to the topic:


Is it other, intelligent life forms? maybe, but we would only meet them if they are intelligent.

Would it be bacteria? on a meteoroite with the same compounds as an actual meteroite (it definitely is an outer-space rock) scientists found fossilized bacteria, proving that there IS life out there. or, at least, bacteria or some sort of living organism.

Or are we only searching for our own doom? pfft, idk. if we find them first, then that means that we>them, unless they steal our ships and hitch a ride to our planet. judging from how long it takes to get from the earth to the moon (3 days-ish) even martians would take a while to get here... they might have as big a predicament as we do, with the distance and things.


a bit offtopic debatey again:

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Now using statistics again, I would say there is a near-zero chance of more intelligent life forms.

are you SERIOUS!?!?

math, again:
500+ billion galaxies
many stars and solar systems each
many planets in each

we're one of one of nine. there is no reason why aliens would exist, there is no reason why we exist, it just is so, and probability states that with more than FIVE HUNDRED BILLION GALAXIES with SOOOO MANY STARS, PLANETS, and solar systems with bunches of planets respective to each, that aliens DO exist.

you say: even if 'they' exist, they are adapting to their environment. thing is, so did we, and look where it got us. we don't really need buildings and electricity... but we do it anyway. who's to say that aliens dont create structures or make space ships if they're intelligent enough to? even tiny animals create structures or homes; birds make nests, foxes did foxholes, spiders make webs. so maybe intelligent aliens made spaceships, no?

Ehem, first of all, i'll start by saying something about the last post, there is a difference between foxholes,webs and all that, with spaceships, the first are simply made by the creature, the second are made with other made things (tools,etc.), now, about that, we (humans) are not the only beings on earth with that knowledge, the crows are particulary adept at that.
More specifically, the New Caledonian Crow.
From Wikipedia (Jay doesn't like it, does he? maybe i confused him with someone else):"One species, the New Caledonian Crow, has also been intensively studied recently because of its ability to manufacture and use its own tools in the day-to-day search for food, including dropping seeds into a heavy trafficked street and waiting for a car to crush them open.[10] On October 5, 2007, researchers from the University of Oxford, England presented data acquired by mounting tiny video cameras on the tails of New Caledonian Crows. It turned out that they use a larger variety of tools than previously known, plucking, smoothing and bending twigs and grass stems to procure a variety of foodstuffs.[11] Crows in Queensland Australia have learned how to eat the toxic cane toad by flipping the cane toad on its back and violently stabbing the throat where the skin is thinner, allowing the crow to access the non-toxic innards; their long beaks ensure that all of the innards can be removed"
Now, in case Jay says we can't trust wiki, then i gotta say that i heard this the first time on a National Geographic Channel's documental.
And thats not the only other creature on earth, there is also a spiecies of Chimpanzee on Africa that make their own tools to make other tools,too.

Now, that being said,if there are other intelligent beings on earth (some of them not even mammals), and they evolved in that pretty unique way humans did.
Why wouldn't there be other creatures like that on other galaxies? we are not very unique, after all, but, we are, very special.
About the distance between galaxies, i think the S.T. for traveling from this planet to the next solar system was in several hundreds of years, tough, that does not mean, it's impossible. Faster engines, more effective fuels, etc. even methods related to cryogenics, like the one proposed at Vanilla Sky (I loved that movie).
Right now there is a nuclear power plant being built on Europe, that could create enough energy for the whole world, or half the world, or something like that.
The other galixies,stars, etc. are stimated to be MANY Billion years older in some cases, now, if the human race would live forever (IMO It Will and, just in case you wanna argue this subject, please do so in another thread), then it would most certainly meet intelligent life forms, that would be more intelligent in some areas, and not so much in others(we humans seem to have a great ability for destruction,chaos, and deceive, things that our history proves, after so many wars).
It would be pretty naive to think that there is no other intelligent life form in this finite, and ever-expanding universe, so full of life, just because "There is no reason" for it.
One last thing, it's not about reaching some goal, like being smarter, or something like that, when it comes to evolution, it's all about improving chances of success in survival, and so, even tough the age of a star, galaxy, or solar system doesn't mean they have life, it does mean it has a higher chance of, but, of course, this is not the only factor for this.
Now, with all this said, I make my exit, and ask you to keep talking about this topic.

I don't really think you got my point at all Kuro. You must have skimmed it and not read it in-depth, otherwise I'm not sure how you got some of the conclusions of the ideas I gave. I'm not going to reformulate or reword it. Try going point by point, quote wise of my prior post and you'll probably understand it better and be able to put up an actual argument. Don't just pick out one or two of my sentences - because that doesn't actually sum up my view at all (Which you're not understanding) which I feel is because...you probably skimmed it and didn't read it. Which is why you would need to go quote by quote to understand it and make sure you read it, and touch all the bases of my argument. If you still don't get it.....I guess I'd reword it shorter and more concise.

You're examples of rhetorical questions are bad. Your first sentence is wrong. Then you follow up using that faulty stuff with "See....". Your idea seems far too much of a rough draft and not thought out properly. Which I assume it is, not just because of the idea but because of the formatting - which implies you didn't re-read what you wrote. Do you do that with assignments you hand it? Probably not. You shouldn't expect less in a debate setting.

Edit: @ Balnazar, where do you get the impression I don't like Wiki....? I use it myself all the time

ROFL jay.j

you're being a hypocrite.

you say 'you just quote one or two of my sentences which doesnt sum it up fully enough"

when you did that in your post... >_>



there are sooo many things we lack statistics on yet we take them for the truth, so dont say 'we dont have statistics.'

just because building structures and spaceships is not necessary doesn't mean a species cannot, as we have already.

i am adressing most of your points, yet i quote that line because it is significantly WRONG.




why do you call my questions bad because they are rhetorical? they are SUPPOSED to be rhetorical. you are the one who asked "why should there be aliens out there?" not me. I'll answer that when you answer "why shouldn't there be aliens out there?"

also do you REALLY believe that with the billions of galaxies out there that we are the only life-sustaining planet? explain the fossilized bacteria meteorite. you must be really, really arrogant to think that we are the only one in so much space, ya'know

Spoiler:

Ehem, just to make sure, what jay wrote was all to kuro, right? and jay, as i said, i think i confused you with someone else, someone who said that wiki couldn't ve trusted because it can be edited by anyone.

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Unfortunately I don't have as much time as I used to, so I won't be going all out.

That's why I didn't quote you. Not being a hypocrite....If you had read that you would know why I didn't go all out . Seems like we're both lacking time. I'm not playing devils advocate here.

You however, don't even seem to know my stance. That's how much you're lacking I would say, or how unclear I've been. I'd like to think it was the former however. Like I said, even though I don't have time, I re-read what I write and others write...you don't seem to do so as you miss obvious points that I've said, and your responses to some of my statements don't make sense, in that they have nothing to do with what I said.

Perhaps after the holidays, I'll go through your posts, and clarify my viewpoint.

However, as a start - here.

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we also lack statistics on the big bang.

This sentence isn't even meaningful. There aren't "Statistics" about the big bang. It's a theory based on EVIDENCE that this is how the universe began. It uses phenomenon of today and use that to go back into the past. It uses universal laws, and back tracks. It uses a form of logic called "Abduction", while statistics has to do with "Induction". Your example is just....bad.

Abductive reasoning
Inductive reasoning

For clarity of what I mean.

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see, there's no evidence to prove it, but no evidence to disprove it. jay.j, you're saying there's no reason that there should be other intelligent life. well, that's true! there's also no reason why we're here either. or why our planet exists. it just DOES. by god's hand or not, stuff just IS. you can say 'why should it be there?' all you want but you'll never find an answer. you're asking us a questions that's almost rhetorical.

Yes there is. Everything you say relies on your first sentence. However, there's plenty of evidence to prove or disprove other life forms. Statistically there are other life forms. However statistically they don't have to be intelligent, let alone more intelligent than us.

Like I said earlier, for something to be more intelligent than us, it PROBABLY comes from an older planet than ours. From what I understand, the universe is around 12-15 billion years old. The Milky Way Galaxy is around 4.5 billion years old. That gives other planets around 10 or so billion years longer. Now, having said that, the chances of life in general are pretty slim. I do however, believe given that large number of time before our galaxy was created, and given the fact I believe the universe is expanding....That there probably is "Life" out there. I said that in my very first post. I however, deny that it should be more intelligent than humans. Why? Like I said earlier - even if it had more time to evolve, doesn't mean it evolves into something more intelligent. If it doesn't need to adapt to it's surroundings to BECOME more intelligent to survive, than it probably WON'T become more intelligent. There is no REASON to think that there is more INTELLIGENT life out there. Life, yes. Intelligent life, not likely.

Here's my position: Just because life in space is likely, doesn't mean INTELLIGENT life is likely at all.

Don't give me the whole, you don't have proof to disprove them either - because you're the one making the claim. You're supposed to put up the proof. I at the very least have statistics to say there isn't other intelligent life. You have nothing. I'm not denying their existence, just saying....what are the chances? What benefit would I get for believing in it anyway? None? So why bother..

Phew, that was a novel. It's a shame I wasted all that time, even though I didn't go all out. Should be studying...I get far too much enjoyment out of debate...Jeeze.

i never said they have to be more intelligent.

i just say some aliens probably ARE more intelligent, statistically, that is. nothing has to be anything but probability says YES.

Your posts indicate that you believe their a lot smarter, or at least as smart as us. Why would you believe that? Statistically, no, they probably aren't smarter. Hell - just because I believe there is life out there, doesn't mean there is >.> LET ALONE more intelligent ones.

Jay.J wrote:

Your posts indicate that you believe their a lot smarter, or at least as smart as us. Why would you believe that? Statistically, no, they probably aren't smarter. Hell - just because I believe there is life out there, doesn't mean there is >.> LET ALONE more intelligent ones.

Your posts indicate that you believe that their a lot dumber, or at least as dumb as us. Why would you believe that? Statistically, yes, they probably are smarter. Hell - just because i believe there isn't life out there, doesn't mean there isn't >.> LET ALONE the dumb ones.



one can argue both ways. i said there are probably dumber AND smarter aliens out there. doesn't mean there is, but that's what i believe :O

Your manipulation of my post DOESN'T make sense.

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Your posts indicate that you believe that their a lot dumber, or at least as dumb as us. Why would you believe that? Statistically, yes, they probably are smarter. Hell - just because i believe there isn't life out there, doesn't mean there isn't >.> LET ALONE the dumb ones.

The reason that there probably is less intelligent life forms compared to smarter ones, is that in the case of life forms, you're going from single cell, to multi-cellular, from simple to complex life forms. Generally intelligence indicates complexity. You're far more likely to find less complex ones.

Jeeze, the argument doesn't work both ways - that should be self explanatory, really shouldn't need to explain it....Believing that there is both more and less intelligent life is better than JUST more intelligent life - however, there's still no justification for belief in a more intelligent life form....

You can't say "But Jay.J there's no justification for simple life forms out there either" which is where I would say, no Kuro - you're wrong. There is. I doubt you looked at the links I gave you.There are other galaxies similar to that of our own. Our galaxy produced life. It is possible that other galaxies produced life as well. You could say the same thing for "Intelligent life" as well since our galaxy produced it, however it wasn't as likely for intelligent life to be created. Conclusion we can draw, it isn't likely that intelligent life was created in other galaxies. Possible, just not likely.

Just think about it for a moment. WHY do you believe what you do? Either you have actual evidence for believing what you do, or you gain some sort of benefit for believing in intelligent aliens. If it's neither, it's not a rational belief...And not the sort of irrational belief that's accepted, like love - but just plain irrational belief.

Kuro, give it up, he is just being naive.