New Water Spell

I don't agree that your points are valid.

Yes it is reasonably balanced, and yes it could have tactical use in a team battle. That doesn't make it a good spell for Water. No one else agrees that it fits the theme of Water.

If you rename it, and suggest it for a different element, it might be ok. Personally, of all the spells in the game, I would rather see this replace Fire Elemental.

Also, you keep comparing this to Silence, but the only spells that silence are either on pure support mages, or channeled.

I am not arguing for post count, that is a side-effect.

I also agree that Aqua Sphere and Torrent are far from perfect. I would rather have more discussion on them than continuing to argue back and forth with you about Mana Flare.

On Fire, Mana Flare would actually have some synergy and sort of fit the theme. On Water, it is anti-mage. Something that Water is not. Fire with an anti-mage/positioning spell would be a good fit IMO.

Also, I would suggest a few other changes to the spell.

(Gotta go, I'll finish this post later.)

Quote :

lol now you know how I feel with res , half of the reasons your getting are it shouldn't be added because people don't want it to happen. And I'm not for or against it, I though I made that clear when I made the list of the things that need to happen to it for it to be added. I decided to leave it up to the community by making a poll and so far torrent has winning, which is the only reason I'm really siding with torrent, well that and I think it would look really cool .

...I said it's NOT a C spell. You keep treating it as such. Also, if you're not against it - then it just makes it everyone is neutral and Me vs Dragon. Also, we gave you the reason of Support is more effecient than carry, you said how much - and THAT is opinionated. That's something the map maker (Rhys) thinks is fine. We gave you a reason, and that was based on facts, which revolved around an opinion.

Quote :

Also, you keep comparing this to Silence, but the only spells that silence are either on pure support mages, or channeled.

Bull bear. Pacifism. Target AoE Silence. Current Silence. Target AoE silence. Water should be a support mage. We currently have one support, being Holy. The closest thing after, is Water, and Wind following it. Water would be a support mage. Just it's not pure support.

Quote :

If you rename it, and suggest it for a different element, it might be ok. Personally, of all the spells in the game, I would rather see this replace Fire Elemental.

You just said it didn't fit the theme of water...If anything it fit's the theme of water. When Rhys suggested this YOU YOURSELF said this would fit Water or Ice. NOW IT'S BEING MADE AS A WATER SPELL AND YOU'RE AGAINST IT???? Flip-Flop much?

Quote :

Yes it is reasonably balanced, and yes it could have tactical use in a team battle. That doesn't make it a good spell for Water. No one else agrees that it fits the theme of Water.

Here's what you did. You agreed with me - and then it makes it look like you're reasonable, and then you state you're opinion "That doesn't make it a good spell for water". Then don't back it up, instead "Everyone else says so". How doesn't it fit the theme of water? I've said multiple times how it fits the theme of water...and you haven't countered it. It's a support spell. It's a Pseudo-Silence, based on choice instead of no choice. It's a tactical spell based on mana, which is what water does. Support, especialy in regards to mana.

Quote :

I am not arguing for post count, that is a side-effect

Nearest to meaning you said, Argueing with diaster has no point, he gets a post then I get a post - I don't catch up to him. You then said something about how you got 8 pages against me with Armageddon, while diaster only got 4 with Dark/Earth or something similar...

Quote :

I also agree that Aqua Sphere and Torrent are far from perfect. I would rather have more discussion on them than continuing to argue back and forth with you about Mana Flare

Torrent is a cool name, but after thinking about it, it's not support enough. I think Aqua sphere can be made as the C spell.

Quote :

On Fire, Mana Flare would actually have some synergy and sort of fit the theme. On Water, it is anti-mage. Something that Water is not. Fire with an anti-mage/positioning spell would be a good fit IMO.

How does it have synergy or fit the theme. The current mana flare DOES have synergy, with ripple, and with amazing timing bubble by stoping their attacking animation (VERY UNLIKELY).

diaster said Water or Ice, I said Ice would be the only thing I thought it fit. (That is when I thought it burned mana. The form it has now, is just damage to mages, which doesn't fit Ice all that well either. Dark and Lightning are the only ones that really focus on targeted mage damage. Although this is sort of aoe like Fire also, so who knows.)

This spell is a non-disable, mage only damage spell. We have established that Water disables, supports, and kills creeps. This spell is anti-mage.

Pacifism and Silence are on support mages, as you said, Wind is also pseudo-support. Those are the only three with Silence spells.

This synergy you speak of would be if you put the ward near or behind you, and they walk forward to kill it, then you use Ripple. So it has mediocre synergy with a single spell? Woo you just dealt 2*power, with a possibility of 4*power more, and that is only if they choose to run forward like an idiot. On Fire, you could keep them away from the ward with Fireball, Firebolt, and Fire Nova to deter them killing it, and basically force them into a retreat or set-up a kill combo.

As far as the post count goes, I was just having a little fun with diaster. If you think that is an issue, reduce my count to 0. You asked us why we didn't just argue with each other to get post count, and I replied that it wouldn't let either of us get advantage because we would just go back and forth. Talking about other things with other people only gives post count to the one doing it.

Torrent is a little bit less support focused, but I was thinking a good balance for Water would be 3 aoe damage spells, and right now it only has 2.

I'm starting to not appreciate you attacking me personally. I ignored it at first, but now I'm asking you to stop.

In this case, being neutral is a point for me. Anyone who doesn't think Mana Flare is a good ability agrees with me that it should not be part of Water. Even if they also dislike Torrent, that has nothing to do with it.

Sorry about making my thoughts all discombobulated like this, but that was the order that I thought of things.


P.S. If Rhys is still against this as a Water spell, then you have to convince HIM, not me.

Quote :

diaster said Water or Ice, I said Ice would be the only thing I thought it fit. (That is when I thought it burned mana. The form it has now, is just damage to mages, which doesn't fit Ice all that well either. Dark and Lightning are the only ones that really focus on targeted mage damage. Although this is sort of aoe like Fire also, so who know

It's a support spell, how does it not fit water? You say "It's damage to mages". But it's NOT. I've again, BEEN THROUGH THIS. It annoys me, when you start to twist facts, and ignore what I say - making me have to repeat it. Lure, decoy, anti-cast (Pseudo-silence), damage dealer, tactical spell etc. That's a lot more than "Just damage to mages".

Quote :

This spell is a non-disable, mage only damage spell. We have established that Water disables, supports, and kills creeps. This spell is anti-mage.

This is a choice disable/damage. It disables them if they choose not to cast. If they choose to cast it's damage. The type of spell this is - is based on the type of player you're facing. I've already been through this. It's a spell that both you and you're opponent have to adapt to based on both of your playstyles.

Quote :

Pacifism and Silence are on support mages, as you said, Wind is also pseudo-support. Those are the only three with Silence spells.

And water is a support, I'm failing to see the point of this, considering I already said exactly what you said, and expanded it. To quote:

Quote :

Bull bear. Pacifism. Target AoE Silence. Current Silence. Target AoE silence. Water should be a support mage. We currently have one support, being Holy. The closest thing after, is Water, and Wind following it. Water would be a support mage. Just it's not pure support.

Quote :

I'm starting to not appreciate you attacking me personally. I ignored it at first, but now I'm asking you to stop.

Done. Bring it up if I start again, this conversation is getting annoying however, because I'm repeating myself far too much, and the only reason you've really STILL given me - is you don't think it fits well, or you don't like the spell. You've given me pure opinion, and even said even if the spell is balanced, which you admitted it was you wouldn't want it. What's the point of convincing you then, if I can't? You can't convince me either - because I know, that it's balanced and will work. I even know that YOU know it will work. You just won't like it.

Quote :

In this case, being neutral is a point for me. Anyone who doesn't think Mana Flare is a good ability agrees with me that it should not be part of Water. Even if they also dislike Torrent, that has nothing to do with it.

Someone being neutral is NOT a point for you. They just don't care where the spell goes, and unlike you have NO OBJECTION with this spell, or the concept of it AT ALL. Let alone with water.

Quote :

Sorry about making my thoughts all discombobulated like this, but that was the order that I thought of things.

That's fine.

Quote :

P.S. If Rhys is still against this as a Water spell, then you have to convince HIM, not me.

Who said he's against it at all? It was his suggestion as a spell - just not for water.

Quote :

That being said Mana flare is not my leading contender for a water spell, I think its a excellent utility spell for water but that does not mean its whats going in.

From Rhys ^^. He says it's a good spell for WATER. Doesn't mean it's going in sure, and nothing we debate about or agree on will mean it's going in for sure. However, you seem to be skewing the facts, by making it look like he was in favor of not putting it in at all for water, and he would have to convince me, making me look like the bad guy instead of you.

I said IF lol. I didn't remember how Rhys felt about it.

Really though, our argument has become pointless. Yes, it is no longer a debate, it is an argument. I say drop it and let Rhys decide, or post a proper non-biased poll. (diaster's poll made no sense and wasn't even asking the right question.)

Continuation of this squabble doesn't solve anything, we need to either know what the consensus of the community is, or what Rhys thinks. Without either of those, we are just squabbling for nothing.

Let's talk about possible implementation and/or balance of Aqua Sphere? I know DarkDjinni was against it draining mana at all, and didn't think it should have the duel purpose being cast on ally or enemy. What do others think? Are the numbers I made good?


P.S. At very least, no one else is FOR Mana Flare, and you already put it on the final product sheet. That is why I didn't want you controlling it by yourself, you just put on your own spell without asking others. The other changes were agreed upon and/or suggested by other people. I say leave the [F] slot as a ??? just like [C] until we get a reliable community vote or word from Rhys.

Quote :

I didn't remember how Rhys felt about it.

So you made up facts . Regardless, I'll drop it.

Quote :

Really though, our argument has become pointless. Yes, it is no longer a debate, it is an argument. I say drop it and let Rhys decide, or post a proper non-biased poll. (diaster's poll made no sense and wasn't even asking the right question.)

Agreed. Finally, eh?

Quote :

Let's talk about possible implementation and/or balance of Aqua Sphere? I know DarkDjinni was against it draining mana at all, and didn't think it should have the duel purpose being cast on ally or enemy. What do others think? Are the numbers I made good?

Agreed, 2 in a row? - However it depends on if it's a C spell or not.

Quote :

P.S. At very least, no one else is FOR Mana Flare, and you already put it on the final product sheet. That is why I didn't want you controlling it by yourself, you just put on your own spell without asking others. The other changes were agreed upon and/or suggested by other people. I say leave the [F] slot as a ??? just like [C] until we get a reliable community vote or word from Rhys.

I asked others, and no one was against it. Djinni never posts when he agrees - and he posted on disagreeing with other stuff - so I can only assume he agreed with me. Rhys was the one who suggested the spell and said "I think its a excellent utility spell for water but that does not mean its whats going in.". He thinks its a good spell, and for water at that. But again, nothing that goes on the final water page is what will be implemented so who gives a bear? Personaly - I think people haven't chosen a side BECAUSE this has become an arguement, and no one wants to be in the middle of it.

Yeah, I also think that is why. It completely defeats the purpose when the people we are trying to convince refuse to interfere.

I like the idea, I don't love it, I won't fight for it to be put in. But if it was put in I wouldn't mind it.

I think it is a good spell, when used right. Even if they kill the ward you have bought 3-4 seconds.
And it isn't a disable because they can CHOOSE to cast during it.

Good spell, not great.

My view, since people seemed to be annoyed that I don't post alot.

On subjects like this, I think it is important to hear the opinions from as many people as possible. Thank you for posting DarkDjinni,

For the Geyser remake, I would be happy if it just got an aoe buff and silenced for .5 second per wave. (Preferably also removing the casting time.) This would be a much more minor remake, but either this or Ripple would be ok with me.

Ive been actually toying with the idea of adding a slow to geyser, not a silence, and its aoe flavor wise should be larger then 295.

Im not keen on replacing Geyser at this time specifically because Silence and Sea Elemental Morph are both on the table for replacement and talks are fairly frequent about the spells.


Mana Flare, if I was to make it, would either be an AOE without a ward with a very short duration and no channeling, or it will be a single target with a medium duration, in either case I haven't even considered adding mana flare into the game even as a item spell specifically because of this thread. Not to say Mana Flare wont show up, if anything this thread will die out and Ill add mana flare in as a Item Effect a few releases down the road.

Torrent is a excellent suggestion that I ponder sometimes. The Sphere im not so amazed with as everyone else is but hey everyone has different tastes.

A slow was the old suggestion, but if your removing Silence, then you could give the same silencing element to Geyser. Even better would be a slow and a silence. The spell costs fricken 245 mana and 2 second channel for 6*power OVER TIME. It deserves to have some good secondary effects. In any case, that is not a big issue with me.

What I am a little more interested in, is getting all of the minor buffs and secondary effects into Water's spells. The other thread with the full list shows some good examples. Basically every Water spell is underpowered and/or not scaling enough, so they all need tweaks IMO. (Except Bubble, Crushing Wave, and Phase Shift. -Unless your buffing Crushing Wave slightly to 4*power. I want that mostly because Carrion Swarm is still a better spell, and because it makes the theorycrafting alot easier.-)

I like your ideas for Mana Flare, and it might work out as an Item, M-spell, or even on another element. I simply don't feel it fits Water or is appropriate for this specific theme.

Torrent while an excellent name, needs work in the actual spell concept and balance area. I'm sure whatever you come up with will be excellent.

I do however really like Aqua Sphere. (My version more than the others.) It is support, it is disable, it is mana control, it is versatile. It is a great spell that does many things for Water. Others seem to agree with me. The final decision is yours, but if you run dry of ideas, this could be good for tier 2 or 3 with appropriate balance.

The current geyser is 9x power isn't it? Regardless - it's the minor buffs that need to be implemented, and are agreed on more so than the remake of Silence/Geyser/Sea Elemental etc.

Yes, it is 9*power. The mix up was partially due to looking at Ripple alot, and partially due to the fact that I rarely hit with the second-third wave due to how easy it is to dodge. Even if you hit, most Water mages do not have maxed power anyway, so it is more like 7*power for most mages even if you hit with the whole thing. (Which is highly unlikely.)

In any case, your absolutely right about the minor buffs. All of the Water spells can stay for now if necessary, it is the minor buffs/tweaks/scaling that need to take place on a wide scale across basically ALL of the spells. Almost none of them scale, and most are too weak / too vanilla. Ever single spell needs a once-over, and 8/11 need tweaks in my opinion. (So that is 3/11 that need total remakes, 3/11 that are ok, and 5/11 that need serious tweaks/balances/buffs/scaling. Kind of sad that only three Water spells are how they should be, and even then are quite vanilla.)


P.S. Jay, bop over to the other thread. I renamed "debuff" and gave it a new description to fit. It's not perfect, but is is better than "debuff." Feel free to comment or suggest something better.

Quote :

Yes, it is 9*power. The mix up was partially due to looking at Ripple alot, and partially due to the fact that I rarely hit with the second-third wave due to how easy it is to dodge. Even if you hit, most Water mages do not have maxed power anyway, so it is more like 7*power for most mages even if you hit with the whole thing. (Which is highly unlikely.)

This is why ive been toying with adding a slow effect. By slowing the mage you have a greater chance of hitting with all 3 waves, increasing the aoe also adds to that.
Ever since the debacle of brokenness that was sinkhole + silence Ive been weary of putting in aoe Silence effects. I feel that Vortex is Acceptable and adding more takes away from the uniqueness of wind.

I agree with you, that is why we are remaking Silence. But, we were talking about a mini-silence on Geyser. Sort of a different thing, only .5 second silence so you would actually have a chance to cast in-between waves. (But only if you were pro.) Mostly it would be more like an interruption or annoyance than a true silence.

Quote :

P.S. Jay, bop over to the other thread. I renamed "debuff" and gave it a new description to fit. It's not perfect, but is is better than "debuff." Feel free to comment or suggest something better

Why not JUST mist? It cleanses the unit. Done, even has story behind it.

And ya, Mini-silence over time opposed to true silence. It's like how you can yell when you're being drowned, but only when you get above water for short periods of time. So if you can cast you're spell in that short time frame, you could be saved :O.

I considered that, but it means changing the animation. Mist also makes you think of something happening slowly or over time. This ability takes place instantly. So yeah, maintaining instant and the current animation means Mist would probably not be a great name.

About the Mini-silence thing, that could be a very minor sub-theme in Water. Torrent could do the same type of .5 seconds silence then .5 seconds not for the duration as well. (So you would have .5 seconds out of every second to cast. It would be extremely annoying, but possible to cast out of.)

Throw in an adjective...Instant Mist. Problem solved?

Maybe, but it still doesn't sound quite right to me. That is good enough for now though. The name of a spell is a fairly minor issue anyway, especially on this spell. (At least in my opinion.)

Also, thinking about names for Water spells, we still haven't used "Hydro" anything or "Downpour" or "Flood" or "Monsoon." Any of those could be possibilities for part or all of a Water spell name if we need to think of more. Sadly, I didn't think any of those fit very well for Dispel.

Those names could be used for an M-spell or something.

for torrent maybe you are silenced .3 seconds when hit by a wave? maybe like how if your surfing, and screw up, having that wave hit you, knocks the air outta you and you'd be lucky to speak for 30 seconds after that.