New Water Spell

Look at the numbers I did, it is a small drain. Just enough to be annoying, negate their normal regeneration, and give them a reason to Purge/Dispel themselves. It is going to average about 100 total mana lost over 10 seconds assuming the Water mage has maximum Power. That isn't very much.

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Debuff? That is a crappy name, no offense. I think Dispel is a great name. Your suggestion is fine, except that the way it is described sounds weird. I suggest: "Note: If a unit effected by this spell is not Dispelled, then it becomes slowed by 20% for 3 seconds. Also, the aoe boost from Power is HUGE! 200+10*60 = 800 aoe. That is insane, and some Water mages go as high as 80 Power. I suggest power *5.

It is a crappy name, but so is dispel, and is no longer as fitting. Value changed to 7.

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Your Bubble Aura remake is rigged. I suggest .25% all levels, and 1/2/3/4 static.

It's rigged on a water mage, but meh on allies without huge mana. How about .25/.30/.35/.40%, with a 1/1/2/2 static?

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I know you didn't change Crushing Wave, but it is still outclassed by Carrion Swarm. I suggest 4*power, that also makes all of the math for it infinitely easier.

It affects water elemental now. It's used in 2 spells, so it should be fine.

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I suggest that you can put Ripple at a point just like Geyser. (600 casting range) You also failed to mention how many waves shoot, but I suggest 3 waves with 350 aoe. It would essentially be a non-channeled Geyser that briefly silences. Good buff and remake IMO. (The mana cost is huge, and it is a tier 2 spell.)

I'd like to hear if everyone else thinks it should be point cast, or around the mage before I edit it.

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Mana Shield change is good except that you made it rigged again. I suggest a static bonus to regeneration, or at very least a much smaller %. Balanced static bonus could be like 2/3/4/5, and % could be like .1/.2/.3./.4. Remember that this is a tier 1 spell.

Changed it to CURRENT mana. It's what it was supposed to be.

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I strongly dislike the concept of Mana Flare. I have always disliked this concept in any game, but ESPECIALLY in MM&M. Not only does it not fit the theme of Water in my opinion, but it is also an annoying ability that screams GAY.

Reduced time. The ward will have 1hp. Anyone can easily kill it, or decide it's worth it to cast.

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Good change to Replenish. I like it alot. Also, as much as you seemed to dislike making things scale off of Essence, you did a great job in the spell reworks of making your total mana really matter to Water just as I wanted.

I never disagreed, I just don't think the exact STAT of ESSENCE or STAMINA should ever be used. If they're used indirectly - that's fine. I know how to balance, I just kind of through out some numbers which is why they were off, I was going out so I never really looked them over.

like I like ripple as a concept but that ripple seems like a weak vortex...even if it were ranged...I prefer the flood idea kuro had more. Also a good rename for dispel could be Cleanse. I also dislike mana flare...I much rather torrent in its place so water will have at least 3 damage spells. I'd also like to see water morph kept, just buffed and moved to an r spell, but people seem pretty against it so meh.

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like I like ripple as a concept but that ripple seems like a weak vortex...even if it were ranged...

It does it's damage in 3 seconds, opposed to what 5? It's ranged (or around the mage) and it's non channel. It doesn't perma silence though. I think it's pretty good.

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Also a good rename for dispel could be Cleanse.

It's not bad - but doesn't incorporate the slow. We could always not put in a slow - but I think it should be multi purpose, otherwise it becomes useless if they don't use buffs/summons which isn't all that uncommon.

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I also dislike mana flare...I much rather torrent in its place so water will have at least 3 damage spells.

Bubble/Crushing wave/Ripple/Water Elemental are all damaging spells based on power. Mana Flare can be a damaging spell based on the opponent. It's a very tactical spell - and I think it's awesome. Why don't the two of you like it?

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I'd also like to see water morph kept, just buffed and moved to an r spell, but people seem pretty against it so meh.

No one likes morphs. It's because you have to choose between if you're in your mage or Morph. It's the general concept...One is ALWAYS better than the other. It's VERY difficult to make it "Equal but different". Either it's more useful to be in your Morph, or to be in your mage... The concept lacks, and isn't even that good. I think the C spell can becoem a channeling spell or a buff of some sort. Perhaps an AoE Nuke/Buff at the same time?

I don't really care for it because the silence is only enough to be annoying...what really matters is the dmg and slow but I think kuros flood has a better effect to that degree, since it handles mana as well as damage, and could also be made to not channel. Ripple, have .6 silence every 2 seconds and unless it only last 2 ripples, then it does it all in a longer time then vortex and your really getting less out of it cause people will run out of it easily.

I did forget about geyser, but I don't really count water ele's as a dmg spell, I consider them fancy shields, i mean I've been swarmed with water ele's before and it takes them like 10 seconds to go through 200 of my life...its sad really...don't even bother poping them...but ya, I'd like to see water have a 4th damage spell, and ntm it would be great for dealing w/ npc's cause it would kill the other teams creep count along with damaging the npc's. I just find it to be an overall great spell.

I don't really like mana flare cause whenever I see it in a game it is either on one extreme or another, very situational...and I gotta say I hate skills that are situational...which is a big reason I love wind, cause its skills can be used many ways and are almost never useless. (except vortex and suffocate)

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I don't really care for it because the silence is only enough to be annoying...what really matters is the dmg and slow but I think kuros flood has a better effect to that degree, since it handles mana as well as damage, and could also be made to not channel. Ripple, have .6 silence every 2 seconds and unless it only last 2 ripples, then it does it all in a longer time then vortex and your really getting less out of it cause people will run out of it easily.

...? It's 3 ripples, each ripple is one second apart. Vortex is 5seconds. It's non channel so you can do other stuff as well. You only have 0.5 second time intervals of non-silence if you're in the range. It means you have to be incredibly fast...The damage is 6x power if you get all the things..

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I did forget about geyser, but I don't really count water ele's as a dmg spell, I consider them fancy shields, i mean I've been swarmed with water ele's before and it takes them like 10 seconds to go through 200 of my life...its sad really...don't even bother poping them...but ya, I'd like to see water have a 4th damage spell, and ntm it would be great for dealing w/ npc's cause it would kill the other teams creep count along with damaging the npc's. I just find it to be an overall great spell.

How well have you looked over these spells...? There are a lot of minute things I changed, take a look at the other water topic.

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Bubble/Crushing wave/Ripple/Water Elemental are all damaging spells based on power. Mana Flare can be a damaging spell based on the opponent. It's a very tactical spell - and I think it's awesome. Why don't the two of you like it?

If you took a look at the new water elemental, on death it turns into a half power crushing wave at max level, going in the direction it was facing upon death. Costs are put up a lot as well.

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I don't really like mana flare cause whenever I see it in a game it is either on one extreme or another, very situational...and I gotta say I hate skills that are situational...which is a big reason I love wind, cause its skills can be used many ways and are almost never useless. (except vortex and suffocate

Wind is one of the most situational elements...It's all about timing and such. Using Mana flare is also all about timing. Either you use it while he's starting up his combos, so he won't want to stop and ends up taking damage - or he has to stop his combo to attack the ward once, in which time you have a little time to start attackign him or running or giving your ally time to help you etc. If you just put it out too early - They'll attack it once, and go nuts on you. If it's too late, you don't get much effect out of it. It's meant to interrupt battles, either they suffer the consequences, or they are interrupted by taking time to kill it.

ah my bad, wasn't looking in the right place, I've been looking back earlier in the thread. Water ele making a crushing wave on death? I'd prefer if it had crushing wave as a spell...Not to big on making another suicidal skill...*cough* static *cough*.

Ripple looks pretty cool I guess...depends on the aoe I'd suppose..

I'm also reading it will be a ward...and all I can think of is op...maybe then it deals a % of damage to mana spent?

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ah my bad, wasn't looking in the right place, I've been looking back earlier in the thread.

That's fine.

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Water ele making a crushing wave on death? I'd prefer if it had crushing wave as a spell...Not to big on making another suicidal skill...*cough* static *cough*.

Half powered, I think it should be less actually. The costs are also a lot higher. I'm going to raise them actually. Unlike static, Lightning is a threat when not killed. Water Elementals are a joke, so leave them and let their time expire. I'm going to reduce their time alive as well now.

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I'm also reading it will be a ward...and all I can think of is op...maybe then it deals a % of damage to mana spent?

At max level, 1 damage per mana spent. 700 AoE. It has 1Hp. Just attack it, you come in 100 AoE, and use your 600 range to attack it and go.

Your whole ward spell idea is so horrible IMO. I absolutely loathe it, and I would NEVER use it. It is purely a damage spell, and easily countered at that. It is single target mage damage, and doesn't fit the theme of water AT ALL! Single target damage spell that burns mana. Hmm, sounds like Ice or Lightning to me. Horribad spell, I'm sorry.


Why did you dismiss Aqua Sphere? That is a unique idea, and even if you don't want it on [F] it could still be part of Water.

I think Ripple needs to be point cast, otherwise it's just a melee spell, and support doesn't deal with melee range at all. (Do you see Holy with any melee range spells?)

The biggest reason I want a buff to Crushing Wave is just to make the math easier .25 more damage isn't that much, but it makes it infinitely easier to calculate all of the half and 1/4 power stuff.

After thinking about it, I think Water Elementals should do a Ripple instead of Crushing Wave. Too many other spells use Crushing Wave already, especially if my ultimate is implemented. Ripple when they die fits anyway. (Targeting themselves and only doing a single wave.)

I almost never face an opponent who uses absolutely no summons or buffs, and even so, that is ok. It is incredibly good at what it does, and you have 10 other spells when it isn't useful. This is one of the times that I am ok with something being situational. The 20% slow isn't bad still, and the name is variable as long as it isn't "Debuff" I'm happy.

I prefer my versions, but I guess your Bubble Aura is ok too. The main conflict is that I want it more static and you want it more % based. That will be a gameplay call for Rhys to make.

I don't really like the concept of Mana Shield removing your natural regeneration and giving you it's instead. That doesn't sound particularly easy to code, and it is especially not easy to balance. You could build a mage based on maximum mana instead of regeneration, and then use Mana Shield for all your regeneration.

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Your whole ward spell idea is so horrible IMO. I absolutely loathe it, and I would NEVER use it. It is purely a damage spell, and easily countered at that. It is single target mage damage, and doesn't fit the theme of water AT ALL! Single target damage spell that burns mana. Hmm, sounds like Ice or Lightning to me. Horribad spell, I'm sorry.

It's not single target...It's a freaking ward. If 2 mages are coming at you, and they both cast, they BOTH get zapped. The point of the ward is to disrupt enemies into focusing on the ward instead of casting. If they decide to ignore it and cast, then and ONLY then, will anything bad happen to them. The theme is support based on mana. It's disrupting, and pseudo-preventing people from casting.

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Why did you dismiss Aqua Sphere? That is a unique idea, and even if you don't want it on [F] it could still be part of Water.

I'll look at it again.

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I think Ripple needs to be point cast, otherwise it's just a melee spell, and support doesn't deal with melee range at all. (Do you see Holy with any melee range spells?)

Smite. It's also 600 AoE around the mage, it's like 200 AoE more than fissure.

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The biggest reason I want a buff to Crushing Wave is just to make the math easier .25 more damage isn't that much, but it makes it infinitely easier to calculate all of the half and 1/4 power stuff.

I think that's a dumb reason, once you cast you know how much damage you do >.<.

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After thinking about it, I think Water Elementals should do a Ripple instead of Crushing Wave. Too many other spells use Crushing Wave already, especially if my ultimate is implemented. Ripple when they die fits anyway. (Targeting themselves and only doing a single wave.)

That's a possibility, but only 2 spells use it? Dark/Water M-spell and actual crushing wave? What else...

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I almost never face an opponent who uses absolutely no summons or buffs, and even so, that is ok. It is incredibly good at what it does, and you have 10 other spells when it isn't useful. This is one of the times that I am ok with something being situational. The 20% slow isn't bad still, and the name is variable as long as it isn't "Debuff" I'm happy.

Any Ice, any earth, any fire (who really summons?), certain darks...The only buffs are TS and Bless, no? Summons the only ones really used are Infernal, Water Elementals, Dark/Fire summon, and Lightning if you're being gay .

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I prefer my versions, but I guess your Bubble Aura is ok too. The main conflict is that I want it more static and you want it more % based. That will be a gameplay call for Rhys to make.

Yup.

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I don't really like the concept of Mana Shield removing your natural regeneration and giving you it's instead. That doesn't sound particularly easy to code, and it is especially not easy to balance. You could build a mage based on maximum mana instead of regeneration, and then use Mana Shield for all your regeneration.

It doesn't remove your natural regen. It adds on to it. The point is, that the less mana you have the less regen you have. But that's when you most need it. You have a huge regen, when you're at full mana...but then you don't need to regen. The more you need the mana regeneration, the less mana you get. I think the %'s could be changed around though. And how do you get total mana, without mana regen...pretty much essence is where you get your mana pool...few items add straight mana.

Oh, the % boost on Mana Shield was from your current mana? I misunderstood thinking it was form total mana. Well, that is another interesting idea to be considered. I'm ok with it being more standard in this case, but either way is fine with me as long as it is balanced.

I'm thinking that we are not going to agree on Mana Flare. I loathe the spell, it is a default spell, (even though you put it in ward form) and I don't think it fits Water's theme at all. Let's try to hear what other people think about this before we discuss it anymore.

I could see it become far 2 op at a point to point ratio...I mean depending on how obvious this thing is, if you don't see it and you go into battle, bottom line is your fucked. I cannot think of a fair way to put the thing in w/o making the ward like a building or something. I mean the game is all mages, and a lot of battles are determined by like 400hp, and most combos used are way higher than that. This skill will either be super op or total crap, and I'm not sure if you can find a mid ground really...

That is basically how I feel. And, I also hate the base spell concept. (Have I said that before? Yeah, I've never used a character with that as a spell more than once, and I don't use Fairy Dragons in melee.)

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I could see it become far 2 op at a point to point ratio...I mean depending on how obvious this thing is, if you don't see it and you go into battle, bottom line is your fucked.

It's can easily be made incredibly flashy. And if you cast once and a HUGE ZAP comes at you, you realize that he put down the ward and you attack it for the one second it takes or whatever, or move back waiting for this ward to lose it's duration. Very simple. It has 1 HP...If you don't put it up proper, an archer is going to take it down, or the other mage is just going to attack it once... It's not simple to counter. The balance comes on the mages side, because if they either shift que their spells, or just don't stop they're going to take damage - and not even as much as you think.

Let's take a look at some normal combos.

Freeze + Icy Orb = 115 + 405 mana. Either he's going to cast freeze, and take 115 damage, then think it's not worth it to orb him since I'll take 405 mana, or he says - it's only 405 mana, hope he panics and doesn't throw any other nukes at me. It's a toss up. It's not OP/UP for either situation here.

Fissure + Hurl Boulder = 185 + 175 mana. He's going to come into melee range, and you drop that ward. He has time to retreat, or attack the ward while you have time to run or, start nuking him while he's pre-occupied. You could throw in a ripple since it's semi melee now (600 range is not melee, it's short cast range >.<). Now, if he decides to nuke you anyway - he's going to take 185 damage, compared to the 400+ he's dealing, then 175 damage, compared to the 600+ damage he's dealing.

I could go on...but let's not. It's even balanced for the early game - in that you can easily kill it and the water mage can't really do anything to stop you - so that combo that does as much damage as mana it costs is easily avoided.

ANOTHER option with the ward, is making it zap the amount of mana the last spell cost. So it essencialy makes spells cost double the price. This is more support oriented, however I think this is a lot harder to balance then damage, as it severely outclasses Ice's mana burning.

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This skill will either be super op or total crap, and I'm not sure if you can find a mid ground really...

I don't see why not. It's balanced by the fact it only takes one hit to kill - accomplishing it's purpose of delaying, interrupting, messing up mages and supporting you're carry. It's balanced on the other side because it's easily dealt with, but takes away precious time - which is what silence does. However you now have a CHOICE in if you wan't to cast and risk the damage. It IS silence, with a twist...

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Oh, the % boost on Mana Shield was from your current mana? I misunderstood thinking it was form total mana. Well, that is another interesting idea to be considered. I'm ok with it being more standard in this case, but either way is fine with me as long as it is balanced.

It was a typo, I fixed it. It did say total mana, but it was supposed to say current - which I fixed. I like the concept in that when you most need the mana, you don't have it - but when you don't need it, you have more than you can handle .

Ya know...I still don't like the idea of adding mana flare into an all mage game...maybe as a m-spell but not as anything less then a c spell. Even if it has 1 hp, I'm sure you know how slow mages are on attacking and to be able to delay a team that much or cost them 300-500 hp each...definitely should be a m-spell if anything. I'd much prefer something like aura sphere.

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Ya know...I still don't like the idea of adding mana flare into an all mage game...maybe as a m-spell but not as anything less then a c spell. Even if it has 1 hp, I'm sure you know how slow mages are on attacking and to be able to delay a team that much or cost them 300-500 hp each...definitely should be a m-spell if anything. I'd much prefer something like aura sphere

Silence lasted 6 seconds. If you're fast enough, you can kill the ward in under 2 seconds, or you can STILL cast with it there. Silence > Mana Flare because it's gauranteed to stop them from doing anything useful. This only makes them warey of doing so. I think it's actually underpowered, but we'll see in test games if this gets implemented...

true, but w/ silence you have to be in their face channeling, not quite the same for this ward. As I said, I'd be ok with it if it were a m-spell, nothing less really...I've played many games where there was mana flare, the unit had to channel it, and all spell casters got their faces melted...don't want water having that kinda power alone...maybe water/ice.

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true, but w/ silence you have to be in their face channeling, not quite the same for this ward.

Pffffft. REAL silence. Not no Vortex/Suffocate. Like ACTUAL silence. The one water currently has.

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I've played many games where there was mana flare, the unit had to channel it, and all spell casters got their faces melted...

There's a reason why it's a ward and not channeled. It's so you can kill it no matter who you are and not waste a stun or anything. I made the numbers good too - there are certain spells that you can still use, and not get zapped because of the range. My numbers are damn good, theoreticaly. Try it before you knock it.

really? when was it 6 seconds!? thats as long as sitting in vortex the whole time...but one thing that would probably balance it is, you have to channel the ward. That way it also eats up your time to keep it up and you can't go spamming spells while they can't. And I'd also like to see this added in a test version so we can be sure its not going to be imba.

I'll be here to argue later, but I'm busy right now. diaster has forced me to pull the trump card that I was going to use at the very end to seal the argument once I had support. Sigh, sometimes I wish he would argue on your side more. (No offense diaster, and I appreciate the effort and support.)

Silence (3 levels) [F]

Effect: Stops all enemies in a target area from casting spells for a few seconds.

Mana Cost: 75/100/125
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 700
Cooldown: 19 seconds
Area of Effect: 225/290/355
Duration: 3/4/5 seconds
Skill Point Cost: 6/6/6
Total Skill Point Cost: 18

5 seconds. Completely renders a mage useless. This right now, is WAY better than making them take damage for wanting to cast a spell. They can't with silence. You don't take damage, and you can nuke them all you want without them retaliating for 5 seconds. So you're worried about them not fighting back while you can...well that's what silence is currently. SILENCE is what's overpowered in a game of mages. Not a tactical spell that can backfire if not used right. Make you waste mana and time for something that one attack kills - and it doesn't even have to be by the mage.

You guys are worried that it's overpowered. I've done my theorycrafting - and it's actually good numberwise. You get punished for casting, instead of not being able to at all. Channeling the ward nerfs it soo hard, it's not even funny. You guys are honestly - the both of you - so worried about making it not too powerful, you're making it worthless. Seriously - most spells are like 100-300, but they do so much more. The damage you take for casting within the ward, compared to the damage you deal is so minimal, atleast for a High level game. The whole point is, that you gain that advantage and be able to cast back while they're casting at you - or making them have to take the time to kill the ward which takes less time then silence does anyway.

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And I'd also like to see this added in a test version so we can be sure its not going to be imba.

Obviously...Though, I do think the numbers are pretty damn good.

Alright, time to actually explain my point. I don't think it is overpowered, but rather that it is underpowered and cannot be balanced. I also agree that Silence is an incredibly imba skill. The only thing that balances it is the fact that Water doesn't have any good damage spells.


Ok, let's propose some situations:

Situation 1: You drop a ward just before the enemy casts a spell. He now takes 400 mana burn and damage. In this situation, it is OP. To balance it? Make it not functional for a second or so before use.

So, Situation 2: You drop a ward early enough for it to come into effect. The opponent sees it and attacks it before casting. You essentially gained 2 seconds safety from his spell, but no real advantage. (UP) To balance that, give the ward more aoe range than a mages attack range. This would force the enemy to move and then attack, giving the spell it's intended tactical use.

Situation 3: Since the ward has more range than a mage has attack range, it will also have enough range to be hidden. Stick a ward behind trees, on a cliff, outside of the enemy vision, or many many other places. End result? Your dealing 400 mana burn damage. (OP)


I don't see a way to solve the last one, and the cycle basically continues. Anything that balances it swings it drastically from OP to UP. I don't think spell has a middle ground. (And last but not least, I hate the flavor of this spell. Especially in a game based on mages, and especially in Water element. It just doesn't fit.)

actually that 2 seconds, in a team match could be a lot, I mean thats enough time for a fire to get off a bolt on a target that can't really move since its attacking.

Silence still works alot better right now, you have stun spells that last more than 2 seconds, it would probably be much less than that, and this spell takes alot of mana to cast.

First point: It's not "Mana burn" damage. It doesn't touch the targets mana at all. It does damage BASED on the amount of mana they're spending. That way the more powerful move they use, the more powerful of a burn they take.

Second point: Look at my numbers. Seriously. Take a look at them. It's 100 range more than a normal mages. You can't put that bear in a bush or something because 100 AoE is extremely easy to get out of, or into to attack. Honestly - you're situations assume numbers you've made up. Look at my numbers and let's see them in action.

Situation one: You drop a ward, and he throws an orb, an orb does EASILY 2x as much damage as a 405 damage bolt. It's not mana burn. Fair, he takes damage for using a spell. If he start's to cast again, it becomes a cast effeceint damage to him for you - in the Mana:Damage ratio. That, or he chooses not to cast, and it might save you from the few seconds. Regardless of his decision, it would take him 1-2 seconds to DECIDE what he should do in that time frame. Mental games are then happening.

Situation two: In that time that he sees the ward, he now has to either a) Back off, giving you the upperhand and puts you on the offensive, or b) He comes in 600 range to attack, at which point you use a ripple, and can throw a crushing wave at him, while he uses 1.5 seconds attacking the ward, then another 3 seconds, where he is silenced for 0.5 every other second. Synergy within the skills.

Situation 3: 700 range at max level. This lets certain spells work outside of the wards AoE. Also, you would have a debuff aura on you - gives it away. However, it's not the situation, and you can't hide it.

In general - any skill can be balanced. It's better in some situations than others, and better agains some opponents than others. It is situational - but pretty much all skills are.